Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

This is a discussion on Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm The only problem is, that while we could prove once and for all that the older lead is a more consistent ...

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Thread: Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

  1. #46
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The only problem is, that while we could prove once and for all that the older lead is a more consistent performer thru practical field testing of both, the proponents of the new stuff have only lab tests and gelatin testing to rely on for validation.
    Just ignore that the testing was designed to compare ammunition performance specifically toward the development of more effective self defense ammunition and that the "Jello" junkies top performers are also the top performers on the street.



    Fackler, Martin L., M.D.: "FBI 1993 Wound Ballistics Seminar: Efficacy of Heavier Bullets Affirmed." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 8-9; 1994.

    Fackler presents findings from the 1993 FBI Wound Ballistics Seminar. The following is a short extract:

    "The Firearms Training Unit of the FBI held a Wound Ballistics Seminar from 19 through 22 January 1993 at the FBI Academy.

    "Thirty-seven forensic pathologists, trauma surgeons, law enforcement trainers, firearms examiners, and ordnance engineers (obviously individuals totally unqualified to discuss terminal ballistics) met to discuss handgun bullet effects and bullet testing. This group unanimously affirmed the principles set down by the FBI workshop of 1987: primarily among these was that a bullet must possess the capacity to penetrate deeply enough to reach and disrupt vital body structures if it is to stand any chance of performing reliably in the variety of circumstances a law enforcement officer might meet in a gunfight. Since the 1987 workshop, most law enforcement agencies have adopted the more deeply penetrating heavier bullets. At the 1993 symposium, trainers from five large departments (California Highway Patrol, Indianapolis PD, San Diego PD, Louisiana State Police, and Amarillo PD) reported data showing excellent performance from bullets chosen using the FBI penetration criterion. Several of these trainers had polled their counterparts in other departments and found that their highly favorable observations and impressions of the heavier bullets were widely shared.

    "The findings of this symposium are especially timely since it appears that three gunwriters have recently attempted to trump up a 'controversy' by claiming that the heavier subsonic bullets used by the majority of law enforcement agencies have been turning in a poor record in 'street' shootings. The story of how several senior trainers exposed this attempted fraud by these gunwriter/bullet salesmen was the subject of IWBA Bulletin No. 1, which accompanied the third issue of the Wound Ballistics Review."

    Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

    This article examines the physiological mechanisms of the human body to provide a medical answer to the question: How many times is it necessary to shoot an assailant before he is incapacitated?

    Newgard reviews the physiological mechanisms of gunshot wound trauma incapacitation:

    "The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

    Newgard discusses the body's blood loss sensory and compensatory mechanisms (venous constriction, increased cardiac output and vascular fluid transfer), and the degree in which these mechanisms respond to, and compensate for, hemorrhagic shock. He reviews clinical tests of human tolerance for blood loss, which "demonstrate that adequate blood pressure can be maintained with minimal symptoms until a 20% blood deficit was reached." Newgard provides the following example:

    "For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.... This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

    "Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms."

    Newgard investigates the survival times of persons who received fatal gunshot wounds to determine if the person who was shot had enough time to shoot back. He concludes:

    "Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."

    Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds
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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Sgb, I really don't agree with some of this material, and additionally, I don't feel that they are anymore qualified to test bullets in tissue then I am. We just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
    I would love to load up with cheaper lead bullets, but last I heard you weren't supposed to shoot unjacketed ammo out of a Glock. Is that true? I don't own any revolvers, only a Glock 23 and an LC9. I don't think I'm supposed to shoot plain lead out of either.
    Your correct.
    An aftermarket barrel would be needed.
    --Jason--

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Your correct.
    An aftermarket barrel would be needed.
    That is the conventional wisdom for Glocks (although that is debated by some regarding hard cast vs soft swaged lead), but I don't think the same would hold true for the LC9. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Just ignore that the testing was designed to compare ammunition performance specifically toward the development of more effective self defense ammunition and that the "Jello" junkies top performers are also the top performers on the street.
    Well, not quite. Most of those loads do not have enough shootings to back that up, besides, if anecdote is flawed then how can it be believed that one is a top performer? The 357 magnum 125 JHP at 1400 FPS is the king. All jello does is PREDICT how bullets work. So what you are saying is if The Texas DPS say's that the 357 Sig drops everyone with 1-2 shots, and The Illinois State Police say that the 115 Grain 9mm +P+ does the same thing that the information from investigated shootings of real live, angry, drunk, drugged, emotionally disturbed people is of lesser value than something done to a block of jello?

    Jello testing CAN be good. When you take bullets that have a KNOWN success rate, and not cherry picked loads like Mr Wolberg did. You take that jello, shoot that 125 Grain 357 into it, inject dye, take a picture and say "THAT IS WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE". Then you compare your other bullets to that.

    Silvertips worked 25 years ago, I guess they will still work today.

  7. #51
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    I can't find any published material on differences in manufacturing of Silver Tips over the years (we'd probably have to find someone from the inside of Winchester to find that out) but I do have an observance;



    I have half a box remaining of this 30 year old 38Sp+P 125gr and about half a box of the 357Mag 145gr purchased last year. Notice the difference in texture and definition? By the way, they're both sportin' nickel plated cases. I've never seen Silver Tips loaded in plain brass cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brady View Post
    I can't find any published material on differences in manufacturing of Silver Tips over the years (we'd probably have to find someone from the inside of Winchester to find that out) but I do have an observance;

    I have half a box remaining of this 30 year old 38Sp+P 125gr and about half a box of the 357Mag 145gr purchased last year. Notice the difference in texture and definition? By the way, they're both sportin' nickel plated cases. I've never seen Silver Tips loaded in plain brass cases.
    Good idea on the picture. I think I have some 9mm Silvertips from the 80's, I'll have to take a picture.
    --Jason--

  9. #53
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    I think Silvertips are an awesome performer in flesh. I believe the difference in it and the newer wonder rounds is that they were created for multiple barrier penetration. That's not a major issue for Joe or Judy public.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    The reason for the difference in the photo is the 38 STHP's had an aluminum jacket.

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    Great to see the side-by-side photo.
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    I have some Silvertips in various calibers......just like I have some Black Talons and some IQs....etc. To me, they are novelty items now. The eighties and nineties were testing grounds that ultimately lead to more research and development into what we now have as current production and quick sellers by popular demand. Will they do? I figure they would....otherwise I wouldn't have a few boxes of them myself. I'm not going to shoot them or carry them since they are rather rare now (at least the boxes that I have).

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Well, not quite. Most of those loads do not have enough shootings to back that up, besides, if anecdote is flawed then how can it be believed that one is a top performer? The 357 magnum 125 JHP at 1400 FPS is the king. All jello does is PREDICT how bullets work. So what you are saying is if The Texas DPS say's that the 357 Sig drops everyone with 1-2 shots, and The Illinois State Police say that the 115 Grain 9mm +P+ does the same thing that the information from investigated shootings of real live, angry, drunk, drugged, emotionally disturbed people is of lesser value than something done to a block of jello?

    Jello testing CAN be good. When you take bullets that have a KNOWN success rate, and not cherry picked loads like Mr Wolberg did. You take that jello, shoot that 125 Grain 357 into it, inject dye, take a picture and say "THAT IS WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE". Then you compare your other bullets to that.

    Silvertips worked 25 years ago, I guess they will still work today.
    Agent Dove and Trooper Coates would most likely disagree if they were still alive.

    1987 Miami shootout -
    Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm (Winchester Silvertip) rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this first was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s eventual death.

    Dove's 9 mm pistol was rendered inoperative after being hit by one of Platt's bullets. Hanlon fired at Platt and was shot in the hand while reloading. Grogan and Dove were kneeling alongside the driver’s side of their car. Both were preoccupied with getting Dove's gun running and did not detect that Platt was aggressively advancing upon them. When Platt rounded the rear of their car he killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot Hanlon in the groin area and then killed Dove with two shots to the head.
    Of course the Miami shootout was instrumental in the reevaluation of the tactics and ammunition terminal performance used in LE that so many want to dismiss out of hand.

    Trooper Mark Hunter Coates

    n November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

    The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.)

    After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.

    Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

    The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.

    None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  14. #58
    OD*
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    When the Silver Tips (the handgun cartridges, not the rifle ST's that have been around since the 1930s) were first intro'd the Illinois State Police used them when they were one of the first departments to go the the semi-auto (S&W 39), they had horrible performance out of them.
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    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Agent Dove and Trooper Coates would most likely disagree if they were still alive.
    That is really lame. Are those the only two failures you could find?

    I mentioned a blanket statement about silvertips in general being effective, but specifying the 125 grain 357 magnum as effective. Wow, someone shot with a 357 magnum survived and continued to fight. A female LA cop also took a 357 that penetrated her chest and was able to shoot and kill her attacker. The failure in both of the shootings you linked are well documented and it was shot placement, not the bullet that failed. If anything it stresses the fact that multiple well placed shots are required to end a violent attack. Even you have stated in multiple posts the importance of shot placement and the lack of a magic bullet.

    There was a situation in I believe 1982, where a subject high on PCP was robbing a convenience store. When the cops pulled up he started shooting at them with a Browning High Power. During the exchange of gunfire he walked out to his car, got in, drove a block down the road, pulled over and died. He was hit 27 times with 357 magnum rounds. Did cops abandon the 357 then? Not hardly. Then there was the famous photo in the book "Street Survival" showing 33 9mm hits to a BG's torso and head and yet he kept fighting.

    That is why I stand by my assessment gained from 3 decades of law enforcement experience in some very rough places in this country. I will carry the most powerful handgun I can conceal and shoot well. That is why I carry a 40 and a 357 magnum and soon to be a 357 Sig and a 357 Magnum.

    A friend of mine shot a guy who was trying his best to remove his head with a steel rod. He fired five shots with his Sig 220 as he was ducking. The BG was hit in the buttock with a 185 +P 45 ACP silvertip. It penetrated and exited though his pelvis. He was able to swim across the Rio Grande and seek medical assistance in Mexico.

    I do not recall ever stating that the Silvertip was a magic bullet.

    Silvertips worked 25 years ago, I guess they will still work today.

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    Hi OD*;

    I have some of the old Silver Tips in rifle ammunition around the house, both some .30-40 factory loads in 220 grain Silver Tip spitzer guise and some component Winchester 220 grain Silver Tip spitzers just like the factory .30-40 loads, put up in the yellow Winchester Western box. Got a bunch of boxes of those long .30 Silver Tip bullets cheap on a close-out back in the early 1980s. Shot most of 'em up in the .30-40 and the .30-06.


    "The BG was hit in the buttock with a 185 +P 45 ACP silvertip. It penetrated and exited though his pelvis. He was able to swim across the Rio Grande and seek medical assistance in Mexico."

    Now that's tough! And, is an experience one could do without.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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