Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

This is a discussion on Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by sgb Where have I made that claim? Never said you did, just a clarification, ie; people should worry about hitting the target ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Where have I made that claim?
    Never said you did, just a clarification, ie; people should worry about hitting the target before they worry about the latest greatest design.

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  3. #77
    Member Array gregcheck's Avatar
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    Hi all,
    Thanks for the feed back!! I have looked at a few different loadings since reading all of the replies to my post,
    at this point I'm torn between the 155gr STHP & the corbon 135gr HP.
    Do you think the 135gr is too lite? would I be better off sticking to something in the 155/180gr loading, as mentioned above this is for self defense
    am I am NOT a LEO so I don't really plan on shooting through barriers, this I believe would create a major law suit by either the BG or his family.

    G-Man
    I do have a question for you, when you talk about " average joe citizen " shooting though barriers and then being in trouble for doing so, now from the stand point of a LEO person ( I know we don't live in the same state) if someone broke into my home while me & my wife are sleeping & I woke up with someone trying to break down my bedroom door, would it considered a justifiable shooting if I announced I was armed and willing to protect my family with force, BEFORE putting a round through the door? ( discount kids & bystanders/neighbors) Again I'm just looking for a LEO take on this that's all & as mentioned above I know we don't live in the same state & to be somewhat 100% safe ( I say that because there always seems to be a lawyer willing to take a case & trying to twist the truth for a buck these days) I'm just looking for your take on it...
    G

  4. #78
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    Gregcheck,this is a good question, and requires YOU to think about this, and not so much by what I say.

    But I won't leave you hanging here, because a little input gets the wheel greased:)

    In my opinion, I would not shoot through a barrier. Especially in your given scenario. I'm not saying you wouldn't be justified, but then again, it could be called into question.

    I believe in making positive ID of my target before I drop the hammer.

    But this is something you have to weigh out for yourself.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #79
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregcheck View Post
    Hi all,
    Thanks for the feed back!! I have looked at a few different loadings since reading all of the replies to my post,
    at this point I'm torn between the 155gr STHP & the corbon 135gr HP.
    Do you think the 135gr is too lite? would I be better off sticking to something in the 155/180gr loading, as mentioned above this is for self defense
    am I am NOT a LEO so I don't really plan on shooting through barriers, this I believe would create a major law suit by either the BG or his family.

    G-Man
    I do have a question for you, when you talk about " average joe citizen " shooting though barriers and then being in trouble for doing so, now from the stand point of a LEO person ( I know we don't live in the same state) if someone broke into my home while me & my wife are sleeping & I woke up with someone trying to break down my bedroom door, would it considered a justifiable shooting if I announced I was armed and willing to protect my family with force, BEFORE putting a round through the door? ( discount kids & bystanders/neighbors) Again I'm just looking for a LEO take on this that's all & as mentioned above I know we don't live in the same state & to be somewhat 100% safe ( I say that because there always seems to be a lawyer willing to take a case & trying to twist the truth for a buck these days) I'm just looking for your take on it...
    G
    Which bullet is cheaper? Corbon can be expensive.

    If you were being carjacked, and afraid for your life, would you fire through your car door to protect yourself and your family?

    Why just LEO's response? You might be better served with an attorneys response. What is the "castle doctrine" for your state? Do you know? But I'm not an LEO... sorry.
    --Jason--

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Never said you did, just a clarification, ie; people should worry about hitting the target before they worry about the latest greatest design.
    Which brings us back to Agent Dove, he made a shot with good placement and the bullet failed to reach the heart and while still a lethal wound it allowed Platt to remain ambulatory long enough to to kill him (Dove). Making good shots with ammunition that doesn't stop the antagonist can and does get people killed. Obviously shot placement alone isn't enough.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Agent Dove's part in this entire fiasco was a sad ending to be sure. But let's not forget this entire thing revolves around much, much more.
    And let's not forget that Agent Dove, did not have the option to run away from the threat, which he had plenty of time to do. After the initial contact, if the agents had been private citizens, they all had an opportunity to remove themselves from the situation.
    So I think if you place the scenario in it's proper context as pertaining to SD, it is very different.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #82
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    Gregcheck, on the subject of which weight to choose, I always go as heavy as I can. I'm not really sure it makes a different as far as brand. After all, if barrier penetration is truly a major concern, then a revolver stoked with stiff loaded hardcast bullets would be the top tier round for that.

    And modern day automobile doors are pretty thin anyway.

    But a person can sit around and think of scenarios to the point that they don't feel anything outside of a rocket propelled " bunker buster" is adequate. Don't be one of those.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #83
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Agent Dove's part in this entire fiasco was a sad ending to be sure. But let's not forget this entire thing revolves around much, much more.
    And let's not forget that Agent Dove, did not have the option to run away from the threat, which he had plenty of time to do. After the initial contact, if the agents had been private citizens, they all had an opportunity to remove themselves from the situation.
    So I think if you place the scenario in it's proper context as pertaining to SD, it is very different.
    What's the purpose of this thread? "Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense" ..... Many things changed due the Miami shootout, to include how we look at and evaluate the performance of ammunition. However the purpose of this thread isn't a discussion about tactics and or the similarities & differences in LE and Citizen self defense gunfights. The purpose is a discussion of the use of silvertip ammunition for self defense. The 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Dove performed exactly as it was DESIGNED to do (rapid expansion, dumping all it's energy), which utterly failed to stop Platt from continuing on to Kill and wound.

    The Silvertip is old tech and has been surpassed by better bullet designs (a result of changes made largely due to the ammunition failures of the Miami shootout) much better suited for self defense. The best choices for self defense are the same as the leading premium loads LE is choosing.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  10. #84
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    "The best choices for self defense are the same as the leading premium loads LE is choosing."

    I'd sure hate to depend on this line of reasoning. What if Law Enforcement is more interested in saving dollars than which of several loads is best for their agency? Some agencies are progressive. Some are not. So, the interested person is still left seeking his own way.

    The Silvertip as described: " The 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Dove performed exactly as it was DESIGNED to do (rapid expansion, dumping all it's energy)..." is still the type of performance desired by many concerned with personal self-defense today. There are members here who post on the Forum to that effect. They feel they need the "energy dump" and seek rapid expansion. "Old tech" is lead round nose ammunition. The Silvertip? Well, not so old and it apparently delivers the kind of performance that a segment of the self-defense ammunition-buying public wants.


    For the folk who have never read an account of the "Miami FBI Shootout" it is both chilling and instructive. I came away from reading it first time with a feeling that tactics were more the impediment than bullet performance. Revisiting it doesn't change my viewpoint.

    1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    FBI-Miami Shootout
    glockman10mm likes this.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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    Sgb,I am not arguing that there are not newer designs on the market, and, I did not inject the Miami shoot out into the thread. But, as far as I know, or can tell, the OP is not asking if it is suitable for LE applications, he wants to know if it is suitable for SD.

    And in that specific question, there is no evidence to suggest that for his personal SD uses that it's not a suitable bullet.

    Furthermore, the LE vs civilian differences as to the application of a said item is absolutely relevant here.

    Are there bullet designs on the market better suited for a wider range of applications? Absolutely! Does one need to choose a bullet design for the purposes of SD that has met the FBI protocol? Hell no!

    The problem here in my opinion, is you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Not everything must be so complicated or specific.

    I respect and agree with your point of view on the matter, but sometimes we tend to over complicate the matter.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    WOW, I'm sorry I did not mean to leave you out Blades...geeze relax, ( you seem a little testy or maybe I'm just reading it that way) let us have your input too, now remember its only myself & my wife in the home no kids or anyone who would be deemed a causality of " friendly fire" no neighbors to worry about, just the protection of us in my own home, which only has one door in and out of that room
    Would opening the door to verify the target, say then now's the BG is in the room with us... would this be consider some type of entrapment? or lying in wait kind of charge when I choose to use deadly force since I opened the door? ( I'm assuming you ARE a lawyer by your above reply) and I do also realize we do live in different states. I'm looking for your opinion on the above.... be easy on me....


    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Which bullet is cheaper? Corbon can be expensive.

    If you were being carjacked, and afraid for your life, would you fire through your car door to protect yourself and your family?

    Why just LEO's response? You might be better served with an attorneys response. What is the "castle doctrine" for your state? Do you know? But I'm not an LEO... sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    "The best choices for self defense are the same as the leading premium loads LE is choosing."

    I'd sure hate to depend on this line of reasoning. What if Law Enforcement is more interested in saving dollars than which of several loads is best for their agency? Some agencies are progressive. Some are not. So, the interested person is still left seeking his own way.
    The underlined portion pretty much goes across the board of LE in general which generally chooses service ammunition based on performance and liability concerns more so than lowest cost.

    The Silvertip as described: " The 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Dove performed exactly as it was DESIGNED to do (rapid expansion, dumping all it's energy)..." is still the type of performance desired by many concerned with personal self-defense today. There are members here who post on the Forum to that effect. They feel they need the "energy dump" and seek rapid expansion. "Old tech" is lead round nose ammunition. The Silvertip? Well, not so old and it apparently delivers the kind of performance that a segment of the self-defense ammunition-buying public wants.
    Some people still think smoking lite cigarettes is safer than smoking regular cigarettes, doesn't make it a good choice. Of course that's just my opinion.

    For the folk who have never read an account of the "Miami FBI Shootout" it is both chilling and instructive. I came away from reading it first time with a feeling that tactics were more the impediment than bullet performance. Revisiting it doesn't change my viewpoint.

    1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    FBI-Miami Shootout
    I'd agree 100% that tactics played more into the failures than did the ammunition, however to ignore any of the failures would be a bad thing. The Miami shootout only relates to this discussion in that one of the failures (a critical failure) was a round of Silvertip ammunition.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Sgb,I am not arguing that there are not newer designs on the market, and, I did not inject the Miami shoot out into the thread. But, as far as I know, or can tell, the OP is not asking if it is suitable for LE applications, he wants to know if it is suitable for SD.

    And in that specific question, there is no evidence to suggest that for his personal SD uses that it's not a suitable bullet.
    I'd have to disagree ........

    "As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart."

    ..... the 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Dove passed through Platt's right arm prior to entering his chest, this is a commonly seen event in both LE and Citizen gunfights.


    Furthermore, the LE vs civilian differences as to the application of a said item is absolutely relevant here.

    Are there bullet designs on the market better suited for a wider range of applications? Absolutely! Does one need to choose a bullet design for the purposes of SD that has met the FBI protocol? Hell no!
    And here we disagree, I've seen nothing to indicate that ammunition a LEO uses to defend his/her life has differing requirements than that of an armed citizen. If you have links to documentation or studies that show definitely other wise I'd love to see them.

    The problem here in my opinion, is you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Not everything must be so complicated or specific.
    Again I disagree as I don't see the choices made as to self defense being as simple buy a gun, buy some bullets and you're good to go ....... but then again we're off the path of the discussion. You believe that Silvertip Ammunition is a good choice for self defense and I believe there are better choices available.

    I respect and agree with your point of view on the matter, but sometimes we tend to over complicate the matter.
    And I respect your point of view, even when I don't agree with it.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  14. #88
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    Sgb,
    I have to ask what would you consider a better choice for SD other than STHP? Please include the bullet weight too
    I chose to ask about the STHP because it has been in manufacture and out in the "real world " for so many years that more people
    would more experience with it and that I thought it was a pretty decent round to get feed back on. They also seem to have a good track record
    for not having any issues with either ftf's or fte's, I've also read this about hydra-shocks too, as we all know functionability and accuracy are key

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregcheck View Post
    Sgb,
    I have to ask what would you consider a better choice for SD other than STHP? Please include the bullet weight too
    I chose to ask about the STHP because it has been in manufacture and out in the "real world " for so many years that more people
    would more experience with it and that I thought it was a pretty decent round to get feed back on. They also seem to have a good track record
    for not having any issues with either ftf's or fte's, I've also read this about hydra-shocks too, as we all know functionability and accuracy are key
    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    Anything listed in the link above is good, I use the Federal HST, Winchester Ranger (PDX1) and Speer Gold Dot loads depending on what's available when I'm looking to purchase ammo. I favor the heavier weight bullets in each caliber.

    A couple of good places to order ammo:

    http://www.sgammo.com/

    http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index....me/pistol-ammo
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  16. #90
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    The FBI was very down on the Silvertip after the Miami incident.

    Howerver, it has been said that Lase Vegas Metro was among the first to adopt the Silvertip in mainly 9mm.

    After a few failed shootings with other loads, they went to back to the Silvertip that expanded every time.

    No idea what they use now, but they were using 45s and .40 stuffed with Silvertips when I left in 1996.

    I have fired a few Silvertips in 9mm but mostly used them in .44 SPECIAL before the Gold Dots.

    No expectation for them to expand with the .44 Special, as it was a big 200 gr. bullet.

    If any doubts, always go for the Gold Dots-and work your way towards new designs.

    The GDs have worked for decades.
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    Go RED SOX!

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