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Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

81K views 96 replies 33 participants last post by  oldranger53 
#1 ·
Hi all,
I wanted to get some feed back on the winchester sthp ammo.
I was considering using this as carry ammo for my glock 27 40 s&w,I'm sure there's better ammo out
there but how would you rate this round, good / bad? looks like a claim of 500ft lbs at the muzzle with 1205fps. I do not see any mention of the barrel length that these specs came from.
Now with the above being said would you consider the federal hyrda-shock a better round out of the two choices?
Any insight/ thoughts
Thanks
G
 
#2 ·
It would serve the purpose,but there is better choices,I would run either the 165 GoldDot or 165 Ranger T's,both are bonded.
 
#5 ·
I see this link posted all the time. I have no problem with it as it has served as a starting point for me in choosing my defense ammo. But my question is, did they test every defense ammo available? Maybe I missed it in the article. I have a habit of quickly skimming :redface:
 
#6 ·
The Silvertip is an older design. At one time (pre-Black Talon), it was Winchester's "flagship" defense/law enforcement bullet. Both the FBI and quite a few police departments used it in the 1980s. Then the Miami shootout occurred and a 9mm 115 gr. Silvertip (designed for quick expansion, not deep penetration) did not reach the heart of a violent suspect, and law enforcement lost confidence in Silvertips, the FBI went to the 10mm and later the .40 S&W as an answer, and the Silvertip became a budget USA-brand load.
It was because that Silvertip "failed" (and because the felon shot with it continued to fight on after being hit) that the FBI came up with the 12 inches of penetration minimum as a performance standard.
So is the Silvertip a bad bullet for you? Here's my .02.
To me, it's more important to have ammunition in a defense pistol that the wearer is familiar with and can hit with should the emergency arise. Being able to hit with a load requires familiarity with a load, and familiarity with a load demands practice. IMO, it is useless to carry a load you can't afford to practice with, and gunfighting with unfamiliar ammunition has gotten good people killed. "Bonded super-power +P Felon Stopper" high-tech bullets do no good if they fly past the person trying to kill you.
The late Stephen Camp, a former law officer and defensive pistol authority, once said he wouldn't hesitate to carry Silvertips in his Browning High-Power 9mms. He stated that he'd tested them on game and liked the expansion, performance, and velocity.
Buy a box. See if you and your .40 like 'em. If you like them and can hit with them, stock up, stick 'em in the gun, and don't look back.
 
#8 ·
We carried 357 magnum Silvertips on duty back in the early 80's before everybody started ditching revolvers for semi-auto pistols,I carry a 1911 loaded with either ranger T bonded,or right now it's loaded with 230 grain Gold Dots,9mm have 124+p gold dots,I like my bullets to remain intact even after shooting through a barrier
 
#10 ·
Good timing on this thread. I had been asking myself the same question about Silvertips after seeing awesome performance in gelatin on another website.

I did a google search and there are reports on the internet of the Silvertip plugging and not expanding when fired through clothing. It's also not a bonded round. In one of the gelatin tests, there was a picture of jacket separation, and all of the rounds fired through clothed gelatin plugged with denim and passed clear through without expanding.

.40 S&W Winchester 155gr Silvertip JHP (Glock 27) This reason for it plugging and not expanding could be because of velocity loss; it was fired from a Glock 27.
 
#13 ·
i carried 9mm silver tip ammo in the 80 and early 90 on the job. to me it was good ammo and did the job. it never let me down. i still have some in a house gun today. i got a kel tec pf9 range gun and it loves the 115 gr silver tip ammo over any other hp type of bullet.
 
#17 ·
Of the two, if you want an actual jacketed bullet go with the Federal Hydra Shok.

Winchester Silver Tip handgun ammo is just a lead hollow point with a thin aluminum alloy coating supposedly to prevent leading in the barrel as well as ‘tacti-cool’ marketing of the day. My box does not call it JHP but only lists it as “Silver Tip HP”. That said, it is good ‘old school’ tech and I do keep the 357mag variety in my 4 inch revolver for when it has bedside duty.

The Federal Hydra Shok is also old school but good. I have some of this too for my revolvers. I have heard of a technological upgrade called Hydra Shok II but not actually seen it. Word is it is only sold to LE by Federal but can be found at some stores and gun shows. At what price one can only imagine.
 
#18 ·
The Federal Hydra Shok is also old school but good. I have some of this too for my revolvers. I have heard of a technological upgrade called Hydra Shok II but not actually seen it. Word is it is only sold to LE by Federal but can be found at some stores and gun shows. At what price one can only imagine.
Old school isn't good school when it comes to ammo. Lead round nose bullets in .38 special are about as old school as it gets if you're into that. Modern bullets have evolved to outperform nearly all 30+ year old offerings. I do not recommend Hydra-Shok to anybody. What you have heard as the "Hydra Shok II" is actually the Federal HST. I have heard it called the "Hi-shok II". This bullet is completely superior to Hydra-shoks and in LE packaging can be about half the cost. HSTs are marketed towards law enforcement, but you can find them online through some dealers. SGammo usually stocks it. I carry HSTs in 9mm and .40. I even have a box of HSTs in .45 for whenever I get a .45. I'm a believer.

Winchester Silvertips? Why? Again, old technology. It's just a plain JHP, not any different than WWB JHPs but the jacket is some kind of an aluminum alloy instead of copper like a traditional bullet. Then the rounds cost 2-3x more than they should. I don't see why people want to carry it besides it looking cool with a silver bullet. In ballistic gel, they fragment and shed weight like a cheap JHP. They don't even use nickle plated cases! If I ever desired a hot, light weight, fragmenting load it's going to be from Cor-bon.

If you're serious about self defense, look into a load using DPX bullets, Ranger-T, Gold Dots or HSTs. High weight retention, good and reliable expansion and decent penetration.
180gr HST *my carry load* : http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50rd-40-hst-180-grain-federal-hollow-point-ammo-p40hst1
165gr HST:http://www.sgammo.com/product/feder...ederal-le-165-grain-hollow-point-p40hst3-ammo
155gr Gold Dot: http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/50rd-speer-gold-dot-40-cal-155-grain-gdhp-ammo
165gr Gold Dot: http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/50-rd-box-40-cal-speer-gold-dot-165-gr-hollow-point-ammo-53970
180gr Gold Dot: http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/50-rd-box-40-cal-speer-gold-dot-180gr-le-hollow-point-ammo-53962
 
#19 ·
The Silvertips create a HUGE pumpkin sized muzzle flash from the barrel. NOT good if you work at night
 
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#20 ·
I am just curious as to those of you who deem the " old school" lead style bullets inferior to the latest and greatest for SD, to please explain your opinion. Exactly what do you base this great wisdom on that you impart on the lesser knowledgeable of us.

For I have found all of this hoopla over bullets costing 1$ apiece a bunch of BS.
 
#30 ·
A "old style" lead bullet will be better then a FMJ. Depending on composition of the lead, it should expand/deform/flatten when striking a target. Will it penetrate enough? Maybe. Will it over penetrate? Maybe. A quality hollowpoint should expand and penetrate -- not one or the other. There's my opinion.

I base my "wisdom" on the wisdom of others. Who have tested the rounds, and work independently from the manufactures. If they were paid by the manufactures then I wouldn't trust them.

Your correct about the bullets that cost over a dollar each. I'll look for cheaper bullets like these Winchester Ranger-T .45acp 230gr JHP (RA45T) that run $31.95 for 50(about .63 cent each) and they are also on THE LIST. (In 9mm they run about .53 cent depending on weight)

:smile: It's sad to hear you call yourself(and others) "less knowledgeable" with the power of the internet at your disposal. Maybe less time posting here and more research elsewhere. :gah: :smile:


It must be asked if the fabrication of the SilverTip bullet of the 1980s/1990s is the same as that currently offered.



"Old school isn't good school when it comes to ammo."


Such a statement asserts a premise but provides no evidence detailing specifics.

I'm serious about self-defense. Here's the ammo choice. Old School lead bullet technology in .38 Special. "Look maw, no jacket at all!"


It's liberating to get off of the boutique "ammo du jour" merry-go-round on which marketers manipulate those concerned with self-defense. Folks ought to try it sometime.
Yes it is nice getting off the merry-go-round, just find your caliber on THIS LIST, check some prices and buy it. There, done.


Why are these choices "much" better?
Because the jello junkies need the work, and the manufactures need the sale. And... People have more cents than sense.
I'm not sure about the "jello junkies", but in my opinion they are "much better" because they expand and penetrate more reliably. Instead of a bullet expanding 70% of the time, you have the option to purchase bullets that expand 95% of the time(both those percentages were just guesses, I didn't research expansion percentages for modern hollowpoint ammunition, sorry).

If the prices were close to the same would you buy a bullet that expands 70% of the time or one that expands 95% of the time? :image035:
 
#21 ·
It must be asked if the fabrication of the SilverTip bullet of the 1980s/1990s is the same as that currently offered.



"Old school isn't good school when it comes to ammo."


Such a statement asserts a premise but provides no evidence detailing specifics.


"They don't even use nickle plated cases!"

What difference does it make whether the cases are nickel-plated or not? Will it matter to the assailant? Will it matter to the shooter?


"If you're serious about self defense..."


I'm serious about self-defense. Here's the ammo choice. Old School lead bullet technology in .38 Special. "Look maw, no jacket at all!"


It's liberating to get off of the boutique "ammo du jour" merry-go-round on which marketers manipulate those concerned with self-defense. Folks ought to try it sometime.
 
#41 ·
More consistent penetration and expansion. Being a Jello Junkie I tend to put more faith in the PROFESSIONALLY controlled testing of ammunition than I do Billy Bobs anecdotal stories of all the critters he's kilt.

I've carried the Silver tip as well as the Hydra-Shock when they were the newest/bestest loads on the street and have observed failure to expand as well as jacket separation with both. Ammunition design has come a long way since the '80's and the HST, RANGER T and GOLD DOT ain't our grandpa's JHP. Just my .02 as what anyone carries is possibly skin off their nose not mine.
 
#25 ·
Because the jello junkies need the work, and the manufactures need the sale. And... People need to believe that they have a magic bullet.

This helps psychologically with confidence level, and, to help justify the much greater cost of the designer bullet.
 
#26 ·
Aren't you a LEO? Why do the police feel the need to issue hollowpoints or semi-auto's? Do they suffer from a lack of self confidence? Why don't they just stick to .38 caliber revolvers with 158gr lead rounds? Maybe they do use the latest hollowpoints because they have found that under extreme stress, we aren't so likely to shoot as accurately as on the range at paper so we want to have that edge to cause more bleeding even if the vitals are missed?

The average every day Joe non LEO will most likely will never have to fire on a BG, and if we do then we all know shot placement is most important. It seems (from what I have read about OIS, I have never had to shoot someone) that in a gunfight accuracy goes out the door and we are more likely to have to keep firing and are likely to miss the vitals. If we ever do have to fire on a BG, wouldn't we want that extra edge to cause more bleeding?

I have seen the pics you posted of whitetail kills with FMJ's. That does help prove that shot placement is most important. While I can shoot the bullseye out at the range, I doubt I would be that effective if I was scared for my life and getting shot at. In that case, I would hope that those flattened out, sharp edged hollow points would cause more bleeding and end things a little faster.

Maybe we need that confidence because we haven't been involved in a shooting and don't really know how well our accuracy will hold up enough to trust our lives to FMJ rounds. If we knew ahead of time that we were going to a shooting (of course we would avoid it, but for the sake of argument) would we take along our .380's loaded with FMJ, or would we take the best gun we have with the best ammo we could afford?

Edit: I do think that you make a good point that comparing STHP to the latest new fangled bullet tech is measuring microns. I still wouldn't want to trust my life to FMJ rounds.
 
#29 ·
I honestly wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was asking you why they feel that need.

For some reason the experts in charge of LEO departments felt that what they needed was better ammo and range time wasn't an issue. Since I am far from an expert in the topic, I tend to look to the experts and what they choose to do the job and try to mimic them. I do see your point which I believe is that we may be stressing over the details instead of focusing on the fundamentals.
 
#31 ·
In my opinion, LE does not put enough focus on shooting. Most of the qualifications are for legal purposes to be able to say that you were qualified according to a set standard.

And no wonder. LE has become alot of social work over the years, with training time diverted to other subjects of modern enforcement criteria. It is just the way it has become.

Also over the years, the HP round has been used for the purposes of reducing the thru and thru shots that may injure a bystander. But once again, I consider this more a precautionary measure against law suits than a real need, and believe it to be much over rated.

Additionally, with the trend toward smaller calibers with higher capacity, the expansion of a smaller bullet is in reality an attempt to make it behave like a big one. But with the laws in place that require people to be hired even if they are not really able to perform the job, then the tools or standards are dropped to accommodate everyone. So a smaller caliber means smaller gun for an overall one size fits all type system.

Another thing about HP designs, is that they are less likely to ricochet because they collapse or deform more readily upon impact with a hard surface in case of errant shots. This effectively slows it down, reduces it's coeffiecncy and thereby minimizes it's damage to non targets that it may strike.

But the stopping power or simple expansion of a bullet, is not a magical formula for effectiveness.
 
#35 ·
But the stopping power or simple expansion of a bullet, is not a magical formula for effectiveness.
That's true. Especially handgun ammo.

Blades, maybe you are right. Maybe if I did more shooting I would actually learn something, lol.

But you see, I have only been on this forum for 2 maybe 3 years. And, it's the first forum I ever joined, or participated in. Maybe it is because, I have spent 30 something years traveling, and shooting big game and more shooting, and more experimenting, just so I can come here and learn stuff from guys like you?
Naaa, you won't learn anything from me, no worries there, but you can learn something new every day and should be open to improvements/evolution in ammo.
The first time you went big game hunting did you trust somebody else's opinion in your equipment choices?

Your right, if I knew I was 100% accurate with a FMJ bullet, and only 80% accurate with a HP, then I would carry FMJ. Shot placement, range time, daily dry-fire practice cannot be replaced with a "magic" bullet or specific caliber. I know that with modern ammo the 9mm is as effective as the .40s&w, .357Sig, .357magnum, and .45acp(also .45gap), but I carry a .45acp Glock 30sf because I am going to assume my "magic bullet" will not expand, and if it doesn't, I want a big hole left behind. My logic may be flawed, but after reading/studying/shooting over the years I don't trust a little piece of metal to stop anybody or anything.
:smile:

If I ever get to Kentucky or if you get to North Carolina, we need to get together and have a meal. :beerchug:
 
#32 ·
Blades, maybe you are right. Maybe if I did more shooting I would actually learn something, lol.

But you see, I have only been on this forum for 2 maybe 3 years. And, it's the first forum I ever joined, or participated in. Maybe it is because, I have spent 30 something years traveling, and shooting big game and more shooting, and more experimenting, just so I can come here and learn stuff from guys like you?
 
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#33 ·
"Yes it is nice getting off the merry-go-round, just find your caliber on THIS LIST, check some prices and buy it. There, done. "


Hi Blades;

Why is that list the default authority? It's not important to me to find my choice on that list. It's a fine list for those who choose to believe its validity.

If the prices were close to the same would you buy a bullet that expands 70% of the time or one that expands 95% of the time?

I'd chose the lead semi-wadcutter no matter the cost or what test results reveal. I've used the SWC bullet design in several handgun cartridges for handgun hunting and for varmint control and I like what I've been able to observe. Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all in my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion as well.

To put this thread back on track: Has there been anything published to indicate that the Winchester Silvertip design has been improved since it was first marketed or is it the same bullet?
 
#37 ·
I like the LIST because it gives me something to "go to", something that a person on the internet can read, and if so inclined, read the background information to learn more. This is the first paragraph:
This document compiles the current state-of-the-art of the best choices available for self-defense ammunition. It includes a scientific background as to the selection criteria that is used to determine the choices presented. Data is provided for common handgun and rifle ammunition, and a small section on shotgun ammunition. Please read the entire document and familiarize yourself with the background information. The choices presented will then make much more sense

You have to pick something to gamble your life on, you picked SWC for two-legged varmints, and I picked quality HP's, and I think we both understand that shot placement is more important then bullet choices.
:smile:
 
#34 ·
The lead semi-wad cutter hollow point is one bullet that works for revolvers, specifically the lower velocity .38. There just isn't anything wrong with it assuming it will expand reliably. Federal's Nyclad is a great load. For DUTY guns in modern duty calibers (9, 40, 45, etc...) I stand by my statement. :danceban:

I am not trying to say if ammo doesn't have nickle cases it isn't going to work, but I'm sure you understand the advantages that come with nickle plated cases. For what looks like the same JHP bullet used in WWB, they charge a premium for the silver colored jacket and they do not load the bullets in nickle plated cases. How much more could it cost Winchester to do that? Maybe they use plain brass so it doesn't cause people to think Silvertips are a premium SD load.

I'm not saying one bullet design won't work at all while another will. I just don't understand why someone would use an inferior load when a superior, proven load is available for the same cost. The only differences I can find between Silvertips and WWB are Silvertips are slightly faster and have an aluminum alloy jacket.
 
#36 ·
Jason, I'll gladly buy you dinner and a drink if you like! You are right about learning something new everyday. And after conversing with you I have learned you seem to have a good head on your shoulders with alot of potential.
Come on up and we will find some " live medium" to test bullet performance in:)
 
#43 ·
The only problem is, that while we could prove once and for all that the older lead is a more consistent performer thru practical field testing of both, the proponents of the new stuff have only lab tests and gelatin testing to rely on for validation.
 
#45 ·
Just a personal, first-hand, anecdotal experience with the Sivlertip, and why I don't care for them, at least in .45...and I can't say I've ever bought them in any other caliber.

I live in a rural area; people seem to think it's a perfect place to drop off unwanted pets. Most of the time, they're scared, hungry, and happy when they get a quick meal and a trip to the local animal shelter.

Most of the time.

Sometimes, though...they aren't very friendly.

A while back, I came home to find a large, what I think was some type of Rottweiler cross (based on coloration and general shape) that had my springer spaniel cornered in her house; fortunately, the rott couldn't get through the door, but he had physically moved the doghouse about ten feet...I took my USP45, loaded with the 185gr Silvertip, and moved to get a clear shot...rott saw me, and obviously decided I was a better game than my dog.

My first shot was just about 15 or so yards, and hit it in the shoulder from an oblique angle...it stumbled, but did not go down. 3 more follow ups to the chest stopped it, about ten feet away...and the fifth coup de grace to the head ended it.

The first round, into the shoulder, should have anchored it. It didn't, I discovered, because the bullet fragmented to hell and breakfast, with the largest part stopping inside the skin on the off side of the leg.

None of the rounds to the chest exited either. I didn't go after them, though.

This soured me on the round.

I later had to dispatch another large dog, using a Hydrashock...that did considerably better.

Personally, I like "The List". The science behind it is solid; I tend to choose ones off it for most of my pistols...however, I'm also perfectly happy with running the good ol' FBI load in my revolvers, as well.
 
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