The "Old-School/New School" Debate of Bullet Performance. - Page 2

The "Old-School/New School" Debate of Bullet Performance.

This is a discussion on The "Old-School/New School" Debate of Bullet Performance. within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Blades I believe that the "new school" bullets expand to increase the size of the wound channel and "dump energy" into a ...

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Thread: The "Old-School/New School" Debate of Bullet Performance.

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    I believe that the "new school" bullets expand to increase the size of the wound channel and "dump energy" into a target, hopefully increasing the chance of stopping a threat quickly.
    This is ironic, since jello junkies put no credence in energy, because you only look at bullet diameter and depth of penetration as indicators of damage. A 125 Grain JHP traveling at 1400 FPS has 544 FPE and a 125 Grain JHP traveling at 950 FPS has 295 FPE and the bullet with the less energy performs better in jello. How does that work?


    I know shot placement is far more important than bullet design. SWC style bullets are useful when hunting when you want a simple hole for an animal to bleed through, both sides. I just don't see the SWC as a good option against two legged critters.
    What is the difference? Does denim contain quick clot?
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  2. #17
    Member Array Mark_in_wi's Avatar
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    First I agree that shot placement is key!

    I think that taking a hunting situation could be similar to the jello tests. Before you jump all over me most hunting bullets are designed to act different and most hunting takes place a longer ranges then SD situations so bullets will act differently. I would bet that at SD ranges the 180 .44,(JHP or LSWC) would punch right through a person and the next few walls. Something like the PowerBall would probably also go through a person but I would think it would not go as far as the JHP or LSWC. Also consider the .357 and its bullet selection. The 125 is considered the gold standard for PD but few would argue that the 125 would make a good deer round. One way to compare old and new would be to look at law enforcement shootings and see how the newer bullets compare to the old standards. I think if someone has the time and resources to compare the different shootings we could see just how much better, or worse, the new bullets are. These true shooting situations would show real world performance. I also know that this wouldn't show all the possibilities of how a bullet could fail but it would give actual performance information. I also understand that LE may have different needs than someone looking for a PD round. I would point out tha Hornaday has 2 rounds that are similar but one is for Defense and the other for Duty. I also think that Law Enforcement would not be using these new bullets if they did not work. LE has the ability to use just about anything and each picks what works for most of their needs. I think all we can do is pick a bullet that, we believe, will be effective for what we might need.

    I think anyone who carries has to consider what gun/bullet combination meets their needs. If you believe your LSWC is best then use it. But if people need/want the latest greatest(?) wonder bullet people need to respect that too.

    This is a great debate that will hopefully be helpful/informative for all of us.
    Mark

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    This is ironic, since jello junkies put no credence in energy, because you only look at bullet diameter and depth of penetration as indicators of damage. A 125 Grain JHP traveling at 1400 FPS has 544 FPE and a 125 Grain JHP traveling at 950 FPS has 295 FPE and the bullet with the less energy performs better in jello. How does that work?




    What is the difference? Does denim contain quick clot?
    The added energy is due to the the rapid expansion and deceleration. The slower bullet will achieve better penetration.
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  4. #19
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    I use what I use cause it works for me,if you can use a SWC then use it,know this though,I(through experience) know if I put rounds where they need to go,and not just in non-vital tissue,it really does'nt matter what bullet/caliber I use.I'll be glad when we can move from"If you don't use my brand X then your are an Idiot",to more helpfull info,so new members are'nt so confused.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    The added energy is due to the the rapid expansion and deceleration. The slower bullet will achieve better penetration.
    Not necessarily, look at the DPX. More velocity aids in penetration. A 45-70 penetrates deeply.

    I would bet that at SD ranges the 180 .44,(JHP or LSWC) would punch right through a person and the next few walls.
    Also consider the .357 and its bullet selection. The 125 is considered the gold standard for PD but few would argue that the 125 would make a good deer round.

    These two statements conflict a little bit. The Remington 180 JHP 44 mag tends to fragment at high velocity. Also consider that Bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers behave differently due to variations in bullet construction. I try to be very careful with generalizations. If I were to use a 125 grain 357 magnum for deer hunting I would limit my shots like I would if using a 223. Close range broadside shots.

  6. #21
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    I have geezerly views of things but haven't accepted that the 125 grain bullet is the ultimate .357 Magnum load for all that its been touted. This bullet weight is bandied about as something magical. All manufacturer's 125 grain bullets aren't created equal. In some cases other weights may give better performance than some of the 125 grain offerings yet folks latch onto "125 grain bullet for .357 Magnum" as if it solves all stopping power issues.

    I would gravitate toward something heavier, likely a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter, hah! Done up in a hot handload. I don't often carry a .357 Magnum revolver though.
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    I'll start by saying I prefer to carry a semi-auto because, IMHO, 5 rounds isn't enough if there are multiple assailants. Just a personal preference. With that being said, I prefer 9mm because the common caliber HP ammo are generally designed to penetrate to a similar depth/range, and to me 9mm is the best bang for the buck. I keep reading how HPs "fail" if they don't expand, but I don't see the lack of expansion as a failure as, to me, it's what I hit and not what I hit it with that matters. In other words, if I'm aiming/hitting a major artery or central nervous system object, it doesn't matter to me if I hit it with a .38 Spl, .357, 9mm, .40, or .45ACP or whether it's an expanded hollow point, unexpanded hollow point, SWC, or a FMJ. What matters to me is hitting it and I'm going to keep shooting as quickly as I get a sight picture until I see a stop or end to the threat. As for over-penetrating, I'd say there's a greater chance of missing than over-penetrating.

    At the same time, I want to carry/use what has been reported as functioning/performing the best which is where test results come in for me.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Not necessarily, look at the DPX. More velocity aids in penetration. A 45-70 penetrates deeply.






    These two statements conflict a little bit. The Remington 180 JHP 44 mag tends to fragment at high velocity. Also consider that Bullets of the same weight from different manufacturers behave differently due to variations in bullet construction. I try to be very careful with generalizations. If I were to use a 125 grain 357 magnum for deer hunting I would limit my shots like I would if using a 223. Close range broadside shots.
    I have no idea what DPX is.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    I have no idea what DPX is.
    Ahh, Controlled expansion, deep penetrating bullet. The theory with it is expand to X diameter, with y velocity = deeper penetration.
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  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Ahh, Controlled expansion, deep penetrating bullet. The theory with it is expand to X diameter, with y velocity = deeper penetration.
    That's not apples to apples.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher10 View Post
    So Glockman, you prefer the semi-wad cutter design, because it does not expand? Leaving a hole, penetrating (excessively) deep and nothing else. Sure the Semi-wad cutter performs consistently round to round (because it doesn't do anything) but what makes that better than a quality expanding round, which has been engineered to expand fairly reliably through all kinds of media with a liquid content and retains it's weight through barriers?

    If you are referring to a SWC HP, some loads do expand well but not having a jacket can impair the effectiveness through barriers unless it is made of a hard alloy, which hinders expansion.

    Here's a test you might appreciate: Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo test - YouTube
    And here's a load I might carry: Speer Gold Dot .38 Special +P 135 gr Ammo test - YouTube

    Keep in mind, the human body has lungs. Large pockets of air that a bullet would pass right through without resistance.

    I know shot placement is far more important than bullet design. SWC style bullets are useful when hunting when you want a simple hole for an animal to bleed through, both sides. I just don't see the SWC as a good option against two legged critters.
    I love questions like this! Because the thinking is on the right track here, but, I think got caught up like everyone else did in the fable of what a bullet actually does/can do.

    Yes I prefer a lswc, and I dont care if its a hp or not. Why? Because I am not depending on its ability to strike tissue, and under perfect, unobstruced conditions to bloom like a pretty little flower, magically stopping the threat and destroying tissue by virtue of its massive razor sharp talons, stretched out like sharp Katana blades.

    Because, if you are faced with an imperfect shot, or oblique angle, as the designer bullets enters flesh, ballistics end. As that bullet begins its expansion, (if it does) it begins to slow down by virtue of its greater and increasing frontal diameter creating more and more drag. If it hits a bone, which is a pliable and porus material, it can become deformed, and be throen off course to its destination.
    Now, if when you fired that shot, you were aiming for the vitals, via an underarm shot due to threat only giving you that as a target, and the arm is put in the way when you crack that shot, the heavy bone in the arm may defintely screw up your bullet to the point of being useless. Even hitting a rib can cause deflection and/or serious deformation that slows you bullet to the point that it cant penetrate to the intended area.

    With a lswc, I know that its a good solid projectile, with a good flat nose, and full caliber driving band, that will penetrate deeply to my intended target area, and bust thru bone and continue on a straught line path. No variables to worry about, the shot is what I am able to make it, and I know the bullet will reach its destination regardless of angle, and to a better degree, barrier.

    The HP, even modern ones have a hollow end which makes it more fragile, and more prone to deform, which can be a bad thing.

    Bullets stop the advance of a threat by causing a quick blood pressure drop, or a good hit to the spinal area. Not slicing and dicing as all of these stupid factory advertisement pictures for the purposes of preying on the visual allurement during marketing. Its a ploy to get more money.

    The SWC is just as good on people as animals. Have you ever seen a dead deer, or opened one up? The chest size is strikingly close in width and depth to an average mans.

    And the BB and GD rounds are products I am extremely familiar with, and nothing new.
    You can spend a ******* lot more money, and not get near the performance of a LSWC, or even better true Keith style bullet.
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  12. #27
    RKM
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    I picked a bullet that has a lot of good press and functions in my gun, and those are HST's or Gold Dots.

    Energy from handgun velocity's provide very little to no wounding. It's not important.

  13. #28
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I love questions like this! Because the thinking is on the right track here, but, I think got caught up like everyone else did in the fable of what a bullet actually does/can do.

    Yes I prefer a lswc, and I dont care if its a hp or not. Why? Because I am not depending on its ability to strike tissue, and under perfect, unobstruced conditions to bloom like a pretty little flower, magically stopping the threat and destroying tissue by virtue of its massive razor sharp talons, stretched out like sharp Katana blades.

    Because, if you are faced with an imperfect shot, or oblique angle, as the designer bullets enters flesh, ballistics end. As that bullet begins its expansion, (if it does) it begins to slow down by virtue of its greater and increasing frontal diameter creating more and more drag. If it hits a bone, which is a pliable and porus material, it can become deformed, and be throen off course to its destination.
    Now, if when you fired that shot, you were aiming for the vitals, via an underarm shot due to threat only giving you that as a target, and the arm is put in the way when you crack that shot, the heavy bone in the arm may defintely screw up your bullet to the point of being useless. Even hitting a rib can cause deflection and/or serious deformation that slows you bullet to the point that it cant penetrate to the intended area.

    With a lswc, I know that its a good solid projectile, with a good flat nose, and full caliber driving band, that will penetrate deeply to my intended target area, and bust thru bone and continue on a straught line path. No variables to worry about, the shot is what I am able to make it, and I know the bullet will reach its destination regardless of angle, and to a better degree, barrier.

    The HP, even modern ones have a hollow end which makes it more fragile, and more prone to deform, which can be a bad thing.

    Bullets stop the advance of a threat by causing a quick blood pressure drop, or a good hit to the spinal area. Not slicing and dicing as all of these stupid factory advertisement pictures for the purposes of preying on the visual allurement during marketing. Its a ploy to get more money.

    The SWC is just as good on people as animals. Have you ever seen a dead deer, or opened one up? The chest size is strikingly close in width and depth to an average mans.

    And the BB and GD rounds are products I am extremely familiar with, and nothing new.
    You can spend a ******* lot more money, and not get near the performance of a LSWC, or even better true Keith style bullet.
    Forgive me if I missed the answer to my question... since it's likely a wadcutter would not function in a semi-auto, what do you carry in semi-autos?

  14. #29
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    Question - what do we think of the flat-point FMJ for use in semi autos? Any better than RN FMJ?
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    That's not apples to apples.
    Its not about being fair, its about winning.

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