Two different industry shaping ideas on bullet stopping power - Page 3

Two different industry shaping ideas on bullet stopping power

This is a discussion on Two different industry shaping ideas on bullet stopping power within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; “The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a ...

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 44 of 44
Like Tree28Likes

Thread: Two different industry shaping ideas on bullet stopping power

  1. #31
    Member Array mrwonderful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    104
    “The key is to hit them hard, hit them fast, and hit them repeatedly. The one shot stop is a unit of measurement not a tactical philosophy.” Evan Marshall
    “Our lives come from God. So does our right to defend them”
    There is only one gun law in this country, the 2nd Amendment. All else is bureaucratic nonsense that I choose to comply with or not at my discretion.


  2. #32
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alamos, Son, Mexico
    Posts
    190
    SGB brings up an interesting point which seems to have been overlooked. Quote --> Myself the recipient of a gsw through the hips & groin severing my right femoral artery and most of the sciatic nerve remained on my feet long enough to deal with the threat

    **************************

    He was shot through the hip, the bullet remained in the pelvic cavity. The first question that 'should' have been asked was just how did it effect his subsequent performance, and did the projectile remaining inside of his body give off enough residual heat to be uncomfortable? Did it hurt? He has already stated that he finished the fight, but in what condition?

    This brings up the point, just how many in here have been shot and what were it's effects on you - shock, pain, mood, thoughts etc?. this could be critical data for the readers in making a choice. Your post may be valuable in saving one of our readers life, so post.

    **********************
    I personally have never had a body wound from a pistol round. I have had hits from small shrapnel in my forehead and right front knee, which almost severed the tendon, that hurt, and I only have been grazed by a pistol round, It left a scar about 1 " long on the outside edge of my upper left arm, about 6 " down from the top of the shoulder..

    The head wound was only felt as a painless impact, the knee did hurt, but nothing like it's 'later' healing stage sheesh. The upper arm graze felt a bit like a combination of a shock with a 'bit' of remembered pain, I was too busy at the time to give it any attention.


    So gentlemen it is now your turn, post for all of our benefits.

    A lil incident that happened while I was in the BP.. We had rounded up a bunch of wets and had them in a semi circle doing preliminary work. When we heard a shot. All was completely quiet for a minute, the wets were looking around, and at each other with huge frightened eyes. We also were looking around. nothing, then suddenly one of the newer men who were also looking, simply collapsed. He had been shot through the spleen at arms distance by his buddy who was playng quick draw.

    Here was a gentleman that had just been shot at arms distance and hadn't even felt it, just the concussion from the shot. I had to donate blood to him.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p..s. Can you believe that I almost forgot a hit on the back of my right hand just above the wrist, no pain, just the shock. not even during the healing stage??? It was an amost spent round and only penetrated about 1/2 inch. ??

  3. #33
    sgb
    sgb is offline
    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    You don't need to know
    Posts
    2,414
    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    SGB brings up an interesting point which seems to have been overlooked. Quote --> Myself the recipient of a gsw through the hips & groin severing my right femoral artery and most of the sciatic nerve remained on my feet long enough to deal with the threat

    **************************
    FIXED
    He was shot through the hips, the bullet transversed the pelvic cavity passing through the scrotum, left hip to right stopping in his right front pants pocket. The first question that 'should' have been asked was just how did it effect his subsequent performance? Did it hurt? He has already stated that he finished the fight, but in what condition?
    Hurt? Ever get hit in the jewels with a baseball bat by a weight lifter? First rule of survival in a crisis, don't panic, you will react as you have trained (if you've trained). He panicked I didn't, I survived he didn't. However even when you do everything right you can loose the fight, I flat lined twice from blood loss. Once going through the ER doors and once in surgery. I suffer from permanent vascular and neurological damage to my legs as a result of that encounter.

    This brings up the point, just how many in here have been shot and what were it's effects on you - shock, pain, mood, thoughts etc?. this could be critical data for the readers in making a choice. Your post may be valuable in saving one of our readers life, so post.

    **********************
    I personally have never had a body wound from a pistol round. I have had hits from small shrapnel in my forehead and right front knee, which almost severed the tendon, that hurt, and I only have been grazed by a pistol round, It left a scar about 1 " long on the outside edge of my upper left arm, about 6 " down from the top of the shoulder..

    The head wound was only felt as a painless impact, the knee did hurt, but nothing like it's 'later' healing stage sheesh. The upper arm graze felt a bit like a combination of a shock with a 'bit' of remembered pain, I was too busy at the time to give it any attention.


    So gentlemen it is now your turn, post for all of our benefits.

    A lil incident that happened while I was in the BP.. We had rounded up a bunch of wets and had them in a semi circle doing preliminary work. When we heard a shot. All was completely quiet for a minute, the wets were looking around, and at each other with huge frightened eyes. We also were looking around. nothing, then suddenly one of the newer men who were also looking, simply collapsed. He had been shot through the spleen at arms distance by his buddy who was playng quick draw.

    Here was a gentleman that had just been shot at arms distance and hadn't even felt it, just the concussion from the shot. I had to donate blood to him.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    Last edited by sgb; July 22nd, 2012 at 12:06 AM.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  4. #34
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alamos, Son, Mexico
    Posts
    190
    Err sgb, you posted-->passing through the 'scrotum',
    ***********************
    hmm tons of questions easily. Err, ah, did it, aah ???? hmmm sheehs blushing.

    side thingie, having attended pre-med, I have always questioned the fact that the body is such a complex thingie, that it is almost impossible to have a penetrating wound without permanent damage of some extent. Many are retired from a wound to the shoulder or hip. as for an injury to the err, ahh, hmm ???????

    Don jose de La Mancha

  5. #35
    Member Array TinkMan308's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Minot AFB, ND
    Posts
    26
    Question. during some research on areodynamics of bullets I ran across an article that was talking about how it was harder to increase the speed of a bullet because the resistance in air fights the bullet harder. Would that be true for fluid dynamics. The faster the bullet, hollow point or not, the harder it is for the tissue to get out of the way, leaving more energy in the body. That could explain why hig speed WC and FN perform so well.

  6. #36
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,324
    Quote Originally Posted by TinkMan308 View Post
    Question. during some research on areodynamics of bullets I ran across an article that was talking about how it was harder to increase the speed of a bullet because the resistance in air fights the bullet harder. Would that be true for fluid dynamics. The faster the bullet, hollow point or not, the harder it is for the tissue to get out of the way, leaving more energy in the body. That could explain why hig speed WC and FN perform so well.

    Could also explain why I couldn't hit a 12-inch tree stump from 10 feet away, firing a .38 Special revolver underwater.

    DON'T DO THIS AT HOME KIDDIES. I didn't have a whole lot of sense when I was 18-19 years old.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  7. #37
    sgb
    sgb is offline
    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    You don't need to know
    Posts
    2,414
    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    Err sgb, you posted-->passing through the 'scrotum',
    ***********************
    hmm tons of questions easily. Err, ah, did it, aah ???? hmmm sheehs blushing.

    side thingie, having attended pre-med, I have always questioned the fact that the body is such a complex thingie, that it is almost impossible to have a penetrating wound without permanent damage of some extent. Many are retired from a wound to the shoulder or hip. as for an injury to the err, ahh, hmm ???????

    Don jose de La Mancha
    Think vasectomy.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Where the deer and the antelope roam
    Posts
    3,516
    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Think vasectomy.
    With a sledgehammer!

  9. #39
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alamos, Son, Mexico
    Posts
    190
    Hmm 40 bob, sbg, ugh sheesh, still, there are a few that I would relish doing the sledge hammer routine to. But enough of politics.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  10. #40
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    319
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Probably, the biggest problem I have with the latter is the what ifs of the what ifs....those damn variables.

    Anyway, these are just some thoughts, not meant to be wrong or right, just thinking about where we have come from since the 70s and where we are now....and how we are still about as at odds with it now as back then.
    Glockman10mm,
    What would be your bullet choices by caliber? I know you stated you use the heaviest bullet for an autoloader, but what do you recommend for the top five defensive revolver rounds and the top five autoloaders?
    .38Spl
    .357Magnum
    .45acp
    .44Spl
    .44Magnum
    ------------
    9mm
    .357Sig
    .40s&w
    10mm
    .45acp

    Thanks!
    --Jason--

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    9,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Glockman10mm,
    What would be your bullet choices by caliber? I know you stated you use the heaviest bullet for an autoloader, but what do you recommend for the top five defensive revolver rounds and the top five autoloaders?
    .38Spl
    .357Magnum
    .45acp
    .44Spl
    .44Magnum
    ------------
    9mm
    .357Sig
    .40s&w
    10mm
    .45acp

    Thanks!
    38-158 lswc
    357-any full magnum load from a 4 inch barrel, although I like the 145 weight Silvertip alot
    45acp- anything 230 weight.
    44spl-240 weight lswc, and I also like the 200 weight Silvertip in this caliber.
    44mag-same as 44 spl, depends on application

    9mm-147 HP-Golden Saber
    357Sig- no use for
    40S&W-155 weight for SD, 180 for woods carry
    10mm-180 to 200 weight controled expansion for hunting or woods protection. I do not carry for SD.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #42
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    319
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    38-158 lswc
    357-any full magnum load from a 4 inch barrel, although I like the 145 weight Silvertip alot
    45acp- anything 230 weight.
    44spl-240 weight lswc, and I also like the 200 weight Silvertip in this caliber.
    44mag-same as 44 spl, depends on application

    9mm-147 HP-Golden Saber
    357Sig- no use for
    40S&W-155 weight for SD, 180 for woods carry
    10mm-180 to 200 weight controled expansion for hunting or woods protection. I do not carry for SD.
    Thanks, I appreciate it, good to know.
    --Jason--

  13. #43
    Member Array msc8127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Springdale, Arkansas
    Posts
    286
    While I can not comment on any first hand "man stopping power" (and I hope I never can), I have seen some interesting results of old technology vs new technology in the world of shooting feral hogs. My primary gun for dealing with hogs is a 44 mag revolver. Now, when I first started handloading, I loaded several rounds that had 24 grains of h110 powder pushing a 240gr hornady XTP. I didn't ever have a hog get away or survive a shot from one of these rounds, but, performance wasn't what I expected. Expansion of the XTP's was hit or miss, without about 60% of the rounds expanding. The acted like solid slugs. Seldom did I get complete pass through on the rounds that expanded. So, on those rounds, all of the bullet's energy was being dumped into the hog. Interestingly enough, the closest encounter I had with a hog that charged me after being hit was with a round that did expand and stop in the hog. Two more of those rounds through his noggin stopped him about 15 feet from where I was standing. At this point I decided to try a different theory in loading for hogs.

    So, I ordered a batch of 500 310 grain hard cast lead bullets. I worked up a load with them that was a bit over the max recommended powder charge, so I won't post the number publicly. Anyhow, EVERY one of these rounds has passed completely through every hog I've hit with them. I've had a couple of hits that put pretty large hogs down in their tracks with these rounds, and only one large hog tried to pay me a visit after being hit. She only took a couple of steps before the front legs gave out (shot through the shoulders) and she went down and quickly expired.

    My verdict so far has been with the hogs (yes, I know they are a lot different than humans) has been that the big, heavy bullet, making a very long wound channel stops the animals quicker than the high velocity hollow point, even when the HP was moving at a much higher velocity (around 300fps faster).

    If I was brave enough to hunt hogs with my sp101, I'd try a similar experiment to see how it played out with 125gr HP's vs 180gr hardcast. BUT, sorry....that isn't happening.

    My "gut" tells me that when dealing with defensive rounds in smaller calibers, anything that can be done to make the small round deposit more thump into the target is a good thing. However, with the big bruiser rounds, a large hole that bleeds out both sides of the body tends to be pretty devastating. That said I do not, and will not carry any defensive rounds that are intended to make complete pass throughs on targets hit. I have no interest in drawing my 44 mag, leveling my attacker, and taking out an innocent bystander in the process.

    So, I guess all I can do is muddy up the waters even more as it's probably difficult to apply my hog experiences to self defense.

  14. #44
    Member Array Showman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Southwest Georgia, USA
    Posts
    75
    Wow, Super Vel! Just the mention of the name takes me back to reading Guns Illustrated and Gun Digest as a 12 year old kid. And yeah, as some have already mentioned here, the old consensus back in the day was 9mm bad, 45 good, even though there were lots and lots of 9 vs. 45 articles in gun magazines over the years.
    Back when I was a kid, the most common defense pistol I ever saw in the holster of an armed citizen and cops were .38s was either a fixed sight 4" .38 revolver with 6 in the gun, no spare ammo...a Combat Magnum (often loaded with .38 Specials), or a snub nobody could hit with (either a S&W, Colt, or Charter Arms .38 or .32). Lots of people even had .25 autos, and a few had .25 ACP revolvers. They were cheap. People wanted to put their money in hunting guns, not defense pistols.
    I don't recall anybody even paying attention to hollowpoints or bullet expansion. People would buy whatever ammo was cheap and available at the store. Revolvers ruled. I'd see a Walther PPK every once in a while but not often, and I only knew of only two people in my home town who owned 1911s. One had a 9mm one, the other a war-surplus .45. Both were fed ball. It was available, hollowpoints weren't, and people weren't choosy. Few people had carry permits. Pistols were usually kept in "secret places" for home or store defense. Many people liked .22s. for self defense.
    All this flew in the face of everything I read in gun magazines of the time, and flew very much in the face of everything I read from Jeff Cooper. I read how Shooting Associates had the Double D bullet back in 1965 that was the only HP there was available for semi-autos, but never actually saw a box of Double D or Super Vel. People seemed to be perfectly happy stuffing whatever Remington and Winchester ammo they could find. Nobody paid any attention to grain weight. One guy I knew thought "158 grain" on a box of .38 LRN actually meant "158 grains of powder in the shell case".
    Nobody thought about overpenetration or the prospect of a BG soaking up ammo and continuing to imperil. The common thought back then was that if you produced a pistol at all- any pistol- the BG would get gone, fast. All you had to do was just have a gun. The thought was that the BG would most likely run if you started pumping rounds in his direction. The common perception was that whatever the cops had (.38s) and whatever took out people on TV (.38s) and whatever was cheap to pop off 50 rounds of and store away indefinitely (.38s) was good enough. One solid hit with a .38 would suffice. Hey, it happened on Adam-12 and Police Story, right?
    A few years after the movie Magnum Force came out, some people wanted .44 mag's, but since nobody could get their hands on one and even though people thought that BGs hit with them would fly through the air like dishrags in a tail wind, they'd settle on .357s..again, usually Combat Magnums or CM clones. The only .357 combat loads I remember being sold in my town back then were either Remington or Winchester 158 HPs.
    People paid too much attention to movies and TV back then. They just took it on face value that whatever they watched would really happen in real life. Hey....come to think of it, I wonder how much has changed since 1975....and if people think, "Now how could a 12 year old know so much about guns", remember that I read a lot, noticed a lot, asked questions a lot, and that times were different back then.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

powered by mybb body shape

,

powered by mybb book industry

,

powered by mybb bullet for

,

powered by mybb deer feed

,

powered by mybb definition of shape

,

powered by mybb drug recall

,

powered by mybb ground disturbance

,

powered by mybb middle back pain

,

powered by mybb national laboratory

,

powered by mybb nervous system

,

powered by mybb secret agent man

,

powered by mybb wound care

Click on a term to search for related topics.