Theater ammo or some such - Page 2

Theater ammo or some such

This is a discussion on Theater ammo or some such within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ppkheat Those guys at the Hollywood bank shoot-out had quite a bit of fight in them. They were wearing body armor and ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Those guys at the Hollywood bank shoot-out had quite a bit of fight in them. They were wearing body armor and took hits and continued. I'd be curious to know had this Colorado killer taken one non-lethal bullet hit whether he'd continued his rampage or not?
    I agree with the above - I don't think the Aurora shooter would have stayed on task with a couple of 9mm hits. Even if it would not have penetrated, he would have felt some pain and been knocked off his game for a few seconds, allowing additional action against him.

    I've heard commentary from some "security experts" that a concealed carrier would have been useless against the shooter because of his “full body armor”. Unless he was decked out like the North Hollywood shooters, he would have had more than a few vulnerable spots on him.

    I’d guess that the majority of LEOs killed in action in the last decade had armor at least equivalent to the Aurora shooter.
    I would not change my ammo choice for this type of scenario.

    Getting hits on target is more important than ammo type in all scenarios that I can imagine. That has more to do with mindset and training than weapon, holster or ammo choice.
    OMHO
    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein

    "People in Arizona carry guns," said a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."


  2. #17
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    Additionally, the NoHo bank robbers had a few other things "going for them" in their situation.

    1) They were both career criminals, having already murdered an armored car security guard as well as pulling off several successful bank robberies. They were COMMITTED to their fight. Mindset, experience, and training combined to make them very "goal oriented" in the shootout.

    2) They were both into weight lifting/body building, having actually met in a gym.

    3) They took the barbiturate Phenobarbital prior to the robbery, the speculation being that it helped to keep them calm.

    None of these things apply to the Aurora shooter, a young guy with no "hard" background or experience, no commitment to a life of crime, no physical or pharmaceutical planning (at least not that we know of yet)… It is my speculation – with the full understanding that we can’t KNOW with any degree of certaintly – that Holmes would not have reacted as “professionally” as the NoHo robbers, and would likely have been “taken out of his game” by immediate armed resistance, whether or not that armed resistance physically prevented him from continuing his attack.
    tcox4freedom, Bad Bob and ArmyMan like this.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    I meant it will go through the CO shooters armor which was rated *made in his mommas basement*. It will also go through kevlar made to deflect stab wounds. However your post is highly accurate and correct :-)
    Fair enough. I, for one, don't know for sure WHAT Holmes was wearing, but I am going off of the media reports that it was, in fact, "body armor." To my mind, that means legitimate ballistically protective (i.e. bullet resistant) items.

    As a side note, there is likely some confusion over the term "ballistic." Many "tactical" items are made from what is called "ballistic" nylon, though this material has NO bullet resistant properties. There are also "ballistic glasses" and the like, which are in most cases stronger than typical glasses but are NOT NIJ rated against any true ballistic (as in bullets) threat. It's a confusing milieu, and I understand why many folks don't understand the specifics/nuances of it.
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    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    I use the same type of ammo that I would keep at home or carry in the street. I keep it simple since I stay within my budget when spending.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckwith View Post
    It appears to me that there is a disturbing trend in the past ten or so years towards the "deranged Shooter" type event. Having been in relative proximity to both Columbine and Aurora (I live in the area I wasn't physically close to either thank God) I have been giving some thought my defensive carry options of late. It seems to me that the trend in events like this is towards planed close actions away from Texas style rifle in the tower events. And that increasingly the planning is involving protection, I think in the case of Aurora it was more a matter Psychological Preparation and Costuming then the actual protective capacity of the equipment. That hardly matters to me in the middle of the theater does it? I have compact 9mm and a week or two ago I would have had a magazine full of hollow points and I'd like to think I would have shot back, maybe I would have got lucky, maybe the assailant retreats, or maybe I put 16 little metal disks on his vest (as if my aim is that good) prove to him he is "invincible" and he goes on to shoot it out with the cops. What I'm thinking is I'd like to have a round that hedges my bets a little like a +p fmj round. I've seen the Buffalo Bore +p+ but I'm hesitant to run that in my plastic compact. any thoughts would be appreciated I'm a newbie and I know it so I've got no attitude here. I know even fmj doesn't make a lot of difference but I'm going on the play every card in the deck philosophy. I don't want to go into the every assailant is armored mind trap but I'm thinking the difference between performance vis-a-vis the unarmored target doesn't justify the trade off in penetration in one of these situations. Am I right? Wrong? Why?
    I gave it some thought in the days following the shooting, and I elected to stay with hydra-shock hollow points. An assailant isn't likely to be armored, this theater incident is rare.

    You might consider having a different type of round in a reload. If your revolver is chambered 357mag but you typically carry .38 if you live in an apartment, there's no harm in carrying a speed-loader of 357mag. if you're like me and load hollow points, a reload of a regular ball with perhaps a heavier grain may fit your needs. Alternatively, the last half of the mag in your gun might have a different cartridge then the first half.

  6. #21
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    As previosuly stated, a 9mm FMJ round will not penetrate a Level II or III vest any better than a 9mm JHP. Just stick with a quality JHP like Speer Gold Dots.

    And about the question of what the Air Marshals use, they carry a Sig (unsure which model) in .357 Sig with Speer Gold Dot 125 grain ammo, not Glaser or other gimmick ammo.

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbatime View Post
    As previosuly stated, a 9mm FMJ round will not penetrate a Level II or III vest any better than a 9mm JHP. Just stick with a quality JHP like Speer Gold Dots.

    ...
    But, a gas mask is not bullet proof and I think it makes an excellent target that's easy to see.

  8. #23
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    That's why we practice (practice, practice...). The tighter the space, the more crowded the area, the more armored the perpetrator, the more precise & well-timed our response MUST become. We once had a night shoot in an old school bus as part of an Action Pistol Competition. It was dark, loud, fast and...embarrassing. We're all long-time pistoleros who shoot a lot. Many of us have shot to save lives. No one (NO ONE) did as well as they expected themselves to do. If you think you're Bruce Willis or Frank Hamer, you are WRONG. Quality training and bushels of spent brass are the only solution.
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  9. #24
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    Hollow point goes through enough. I've watched personally in my own living room a 124g HPJ speer gold dot go through a tv, a solid oak entertainment center, a wall, continue 15 feet then strike a steel entry door *in the apartment next door* making a nice half gash through that, deflect off, fly another 15 feet, slam into a stainless steel sink *still denting the hell out of it* and end up in a dirty dish........HPJ will penetrate his armor, dont worry unless its balistic level II or III....it will do it.
    OK, this story demands more details and photos.

  10. #25
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    I guess in this case what anyone was carry, what type of rounds or their mind set does not madder.
    They were unarmed by a little posted sign.
    A 380 with some target ball would have been better that a .45 in the trunk.

  11. #26
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    Stick with quality Premium JHP ammunition, carry a spare mag (or two) and a tactical flashlight. Then invest in some dynamic training.

    Just remember even though you can do everything right you can still loose the fight, however IMO it's better to die on your feet fighting than on your knees pleading.


    Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    Hollow point goes through enough. I've watched personally in my own living room a 124g HPJ speer gold dot go through a tv, a solid oak entertainment center, a wall, continue 15 feet then strike a steel entry door *in the apartment next door* making a nice half gash through that, deflect off, fly another 15 feet, slam into a stainless steel sink *still denting the hell out of it* and end up in a dirty dish........HPJ will penetrate his armor, dont worry unless its balistic level II or III....it will do it.
    Oie-vey ............. You appear to have zero knowledge as to how soft body armor works.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    I would never consider FMJ in my carry gun because every round loaded in my handgun has a LAWYER attached to it. Over penetration, especially in higher-velocity calibers, is so probable as to become an obvious liability in a crowded setting. IMHO, the best ammo for this scenario would be the same stuff carried by the Air Marshal Service. They've got more experience against well-armed assailants in crowded circumstances. I'm not sure what ammo that is, but I DO know that Air Marshals are some of the most capable pistol marksmen in the LEO world. So, again IMHO, our best preparation is PRACTICE!
    Quote Originally Posted by TailRunner View Post
    Your Air marshal comment got me to wondering if a pack of amo I bought at a gun show was for real or hype. Some day I'll shoot a few at the range and see what the effects are on the target at close and slightly distant range. This is from their website, CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug:


    The Glaser Safety Slug was designed in 1974 in response to the possibility of having to use a handgun on an airplane by the Sky Marshals. The concerns at that time were over penetration on soft tissue and ricochets on hard surfaces and possible overall excess penetration.

    Today, Glaser offers this excellent performing round for civilian use. It is recommended for the urban dweller and anyone who is concerned with over penetration. Courthouse, hospital, amusement park and similar security agencies will also find that Glaser Safety Slug provides exactly what is needed.

    Glaser Safety Slug works exactly as it was designed to do over 30 years ago. The Safety Slug uses a copper jacket and it is filled with a compressed load of either #12 or # 6 lead shot. It is then capped with a round polymer ball that enhances feeding and reloading.
    The Safety Slug bullet design assures that there will be no over penetration as well as reducing the likelihood of a ricochet on hard surfaces while still causing significant soft tissue destruction.

    Glaser Safety Slug's features still make this a very good choice for personal protection whether in the home or on a crowded street.
    Reliable feeding and reloading
    Minimizes concerns with over penetration and ricochets on hard surfaces
    Excellent for close quarter security



    I originally thought that this was bird shot that would just make the BG madder, don't know.
    Air Marshals are not using gimmick frangible ammo.

    Last I heard, they are using .357 Sig, 125gr Gold Dot.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    ...they are using .357 Sig, 125gr Gold Dot.
    What a coincidence, that's what I carry in MY .357 SIG!
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  14. #29
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    Welp the ammo was addressed now for the really important part: "or maybe I put 16 little metal disks on his vest (as if my aim is that good)". It's good that you are honest about your skill level, and I firmly believe everyone has the right to carry, but if you are carrying, you should already have the skills that would enable you to do this - actually quite a bit better. Do a search on proper grip and stance, etc on the forum and it will lead you to some great youtube vids for explanations/demos.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    What a coincidence, that's what I carry in MY .357 SIG!
    Me too.

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