Theater ammo or some such

Theater ammo or some such

This is a discussion on Theater ammo or some such within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It appears to me that there is a disturbing trend in the past ten or so years towards the "deranged Shooter" type event. Having been ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array Beckwith's Avatar
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    Theater ammo or some such

    It appears to me that there is a disturbing trend in the past ten or so years towards the "deranged Shooter" type event. Having been in relative proximity to both Columbine and Aurora (I live in the area I wasn't physically close to either thank God) I have been giving some thought my defensive carry options of late. It seems to me that the trend in events like this is towards planed close actions away from Texas style rifle in the tower events. And that increasingly the planning is involving protection, I think in the case of Aurora it was more a matter Psychological Preparation and Costuming then the actual protective capacity of the equipment. That hardly matters to me in the middle of the theater does it? I have compact 9mm and a week or two ago I would have had a magazine full of hollow points and I'd like to think I would have shot back, maybe I would have got lucky, maybe the assailant retreats, or maybe I put 16 little metal disks on his vest (as if my aim is that good) prove to him he is "invincible" and he goes on to shoot it out with the cops. What I'm thinking is I'd like to have a round that hedges my bets a little like a +p fmj round. I've seen the Buffalo Bore +p+ but I'm hesitant to run that in my plastic compact. any thoughts would be appreciated I'm a newbie and I know it so I've got no attitude here. I know even fmj doesn't make a lot of difference but I'm going on the play every card in the deck philosophy. I don't want to go into the every assailant is armored mind trap but I'm thinking the difference between performance vis-a-vis the unarmored target doesn't justify the trade off in penetration in one of these situations. Am I right? Wrong? Why?
    Last edited by Beckwith; July 25th, 2012 at 11:40 PM. Reason: I can't read or write...


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    You want butter on that sir....
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    Member Array urkrypt0nite's Avatar
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    I usually carry a spare mag and have considered in the past carrying JHP in my gun and FMJ in my spare mag for such a need...but I like consistency and am more worried about over-penetration than under-penetration. Plus I fully believe that unless they have determined and willed themselves to fight on even when shot, a few rounds in their chest will at least knock them down and I can either escape or walk up and put some in their face.
    hammer2213 and ArmyMan like this.

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    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    I would not run FMJ as self defense ammo.

    FMJ loves to over-penetrate. Meaning yeah you may hit him.....may pierce his little disks, but you may also hit the child right behind him.

    HPJ is the only way to go because it gives the least odds of the round passing through the intended target and onto an innocent bystander.

    You never want a through and through shot in a crowded movie theater.

    Hollow point goes through enough. I've watched personally in my own living room a 124g HPJ speer gold dot go through a tv, a solid oak entertainment center, a wall, continue 15 feet then strike a steel entry door *in the apartment next door* making a nice half gash through that, deflect off, fly another 15 feet, slam into a stainless steel sink *still denting the hell out of it* and end up in a dirty dish........HPJ will penetrate his armor, dont worry unless its balistic level II or III....it will do it.

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    Over penetration is more likely a concern that facing a armored BG I would think. FMJ or +p is not going to penetrate a vest any better that a modern HP bullet.
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    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Over penetration is more likely a concern that facing a armored BG I would think. FMJ or +p is not going to penetrate a vest any better that a modern HP bullet.
    However it will penetrate a human being much better than HPJ. and whatever is standing behind said human being :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    ...HPJ will penetrate his armor, dont worry unless its balistic level II or III....it will do it.
    Lvl IIA is the minimum NIJ rated level of ballistic protection. Lvl II is the next step up, but it is not some sort of super armor. Both will stop 9mm - FMJ, JHP (or HPJ, assuming that you meant JHP), and any other configuration - at pistol velocities. Lvl III (skipping Lvl IIIA for some reason) is rated to stop centerfire rifle ammunition, and will certainly stop any 9mm round. Of course, Lvl III armor is generally a "hard plate" or plate and soft armor combo. The good news is that the plates usually only cover a relatively small area, so you have a better chance of hitting a non (or less) armored area.

    So, let's be clear: ANY NIJ certified ballistic vest is rated to stop 9mm ammunition of any commonly available type at typical pistol velocities.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Lvl IIA is the minimum NIJ rated level of ballistic protection. Lvl II is the next step up, but it is not some sort of super armor. Both will stop 9mm - FMJ, JHP (or HPJ, assuming that you meant JHP), and any other configuration - at pistol velocities. Lvl III (skipping Lvl IIIA for some reason) is rated to stop centerfire rifle ammunition, and will certainly stop any 9mm round. Of course, Lvl III armor is generally a "hard plate" or plate and soft armor combo. The good news is that the plates usually only cover a relatively small area, so you have a better chance of hitting a non (or less) armored area.

    So, let's be clear: ANY NIJ certified ballistic vest is rated to stop 9mm ammunition of any commonly available type at typical pistol velocities.
    I meant it will go through the CO shooters armor which was rated *made in his mommas basement*. It will also go through kevlar made to deflect stab wounds. However your post is highly accurate and correct :-)

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    Those guys at the Hollywood bank shoot-out had quite a bit of fight in them. They were wearing body armor and took hits and continued. I'd be curious to know had this Colorado killer taken one non-lethal bullet hit whether he'd continued his rampage or not?
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    Ex Member Array 1911247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Those guys at the Hollywood bank shoot-out had quite a bit of fight in them. They were wearing body armor and took hits and continued. I'd be curious to know had this Colorado killer taken one non-lethal bullet hit whether he'd continued his rampage or not?
    From a psychological standpoint? I believe he would have. He was intent on killing. That was the only thing in his mind. nothing else. When someone is in that mindset..nothing short of a fatal shot will stop them.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911247 View Post
    I meant it will go through the CO shooters armor which was rated *made in his mommas basement*. It will also go through kevlar made to deflect stab wounds. However your post is highly accurate and correct :-)
    So what is your source for this "made in his mommas basement" rating? Other than speculation on the internet I have seen nothing that contradicts the statement by the police who were there and actually have in their possession the actual gear Holmes was wearing.
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    I would never consider FMJ in my carry gun because every round loaded in my handgun has a LAWYER attached to it. Over penetration, especially in higher-velocity calibers, is so probable as to become an obvious liability in a crowded setting. IMHO, the best ammo for this scenario would be the same stuff carried by the Air Marshal Service. They've got more experience against well-armed assailants in crowded circumstances. I'm not sure what ammo that is, but I DO know that Air Marshals are some of the most capable pistol marksmen in the LEO world. So, again IMHO, our best preparation is PRACTICE!
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    Member Array TailRunner's Avatar
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    Your Air marshal comment got me to wondering if a pack of amo I bought at a gun show was for real or hype. Some day I'll shoot a few at the range and see what the effects are on the target at close and slightly distant range. This is from their website, CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug:


    The Glaser Safety Slug was designed in 1974 in response to the possibility of having to use a handgun on an airplane by the Sky Marshals. The concerns at that time were over penetration on soft tissue and ricochets on hard surfaces and possible overall excess penetration.

    Today, Glaser offers this excellent performing round for civilian use. It is recommended for the urban dweller and anyone who is concerned with over penetration. Courthouse, hospital, amusement park and similar security agencies will also find that Glaser Safety Slug provides exactly what is needed.

    Glaser Safety Slug works exactly as it was designed to do over 30 years ago. The Safety Slug uses a copper jacket and it is filled with a compressed load of either #12 or # 6 lead shot. It is then capped with a round polymer ball that enhances feeding and reloading.
    The Safety Slug bullet design assures that there will be no over penetration as well as reducing the likelihood of a ricochet on hard surfaces while still causing significant soft tissue destruction.

    Glaser Safety Slug's features still make this a very good choice for personal protection whether in the home or on a crowded street.
     Reliable feeding and reloading
     Minimizes concerns with over penetration and ricochets on hard surfaces
     Excellent for close quarter security



    I originally thought that this was bird shot that would just make the BG madder, don't know.
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    New Member Array Beckwith's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies. It seems like the consensus here is that I have it backwards. No round I put in will punch through the armor so I should run the round that wont go through a body and hit someone else. Again thanks.

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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    I would never consider FMJ in my carry gun because every round loaded in my handgun has a LAWYER attached to it. Over penetration, especially in higher-velocity calibers, is so probable as to become an obvious liability in a crowded setting. IMHO, the best ammo for this scenario would be the same stuff carried by the Air Marshal Service. They've got more experience against well-armed assailants in crowded circumstances. I'm not sure what ammo that is, but I DO know that Air Marshals are some of the most capable pistol marksmen in the LEO world. So, again IMHO, our best preparation is PRACTICE!
    My thoughts EXACTLY!

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