Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135 Grain Standard and +P Terminal test - Page 2

Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135 Grain Standard and +P Terminal Test

This is a discussion on Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135 Grain Standard and +P Terminal Test within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; 1) Hog's Head Ballistics - Hornady Critical Defense 115gr 9mm - YouTube 2) .380 Meat Testing - YouTube Just sayin', make a bullet look nice ...

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Thread: Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 135 Grain Standard and +P Terminal test

  1. #16
    Member Array ShootNScoot's Avatar
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    Last edited by ShootNScoot; August 20th, 2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Identification


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShootNScoot View Post
    well if that's the case, look at speer... their stuff fails when it goes through a bone simulant. 0 expansion (and every other major brand, including the critical defense) only dpx expands through those.

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    if you get the american rifleman (NRA mag) they have a write up on the round that goes into depth but is not showing up on their site

  4. #19
    Member Array ShootNScoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    well if that's the case, look at speer... their stuff fails when it goes through a bone simulant. 0 expansion (and every other major brand, including the critical defense) only dpx expands through those.
    Through fake bone maybe...how about real bone and tissues?
    Hog's Head Ballistics - Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P 9mm - YouTube

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    well if that's the case, look at speer... their stuff fails when it goes through a bone simulant. 0 expansion (and every other major brand, including the critical defense) only dpx expands through those.
    That test is flawed on several levels.

    I've posted the issues several times before.

    Not only that...but I do believe the Gold Dot that failed was a 200gr .45, that has been known to have expansion issues for quite some time.
    glockman10mm and bmcgilvray like this.
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  6. #21
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    That test is flawed on several levels.

    I've posted the issues several times before.

    Not only that...but I do believe the Gold Dot that failed was a 200gr .45, that has been known to have expansion issues for quite some time.
    What are the issues?

    It might have been a .45... One I mention is the .40

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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShootNScoot View Post
    Through fake bone maybe...how about real bone and tissues?
    Hog's Head Ballistics - Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P 9mm - YouTube
    maybe not 100 percent? Issue is the hole just gets plugged up with media

    I actually have the Speer on my 9s. Just got the critical duty for the .40... and ranger +p 230 on my.45

    I just get worried when a bullet doesn't expand with any media. Whether it's fake bone, or phonebook pages. It just shows that the hole is capable of being filled up and causing problems.

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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    What are the issues?

    It might have been a .45... One I mention is the .40

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
    In short:

    There are very, very few areas where bone is directly under the skin; the main one being the skull, and if you put it in gray matter expansion is moot. A chest shot will likely have to go through layers of fat and muscle that will jumpstart expansion...and that's assuming that it doesn't need to go through an arm first (very likely).

    Second, the bone simulacrum doesn't behave like any bone that I've seen hit with bullets; bone shatters and splinters, it doesn't make a small perfect circle in the cavity of a JHP. The thin layer of rubber isn't an accurate representation of skin, either...since the last time I checked, rubber doesn't bleed.

    And finally, pretty much all of the rounds he chose are known for poor expansion. It would seem he cherry picked loads that he knew would fail in order to make his chosen loads look good. I saw no 230gr HST or Ranger-T in the .45 test; or those loads represented at all in any caliber.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    In short:

    There are very, very few areas where bone is directly under the skin; the main one being the skull, and if you put it in gray matter expansion is moot. A chest shot will likely have to go through layers of fat and muscle that will jumpstart expansion...and that's assuming that it doesn't need to go through an arm first (very likely).

    Second, the bone simulacrum doesn't behave like any bone that I've seen hit with bullets; bone shatters and splinters, it doesn't make a small perfect circle in the cavity of a JHP. The thin layer of rubber isn't an accurate representation of skin, either...since the last time I checked, rubber doesn't bleed.

    And finally, pretty much all of the rounds he chose are known for poor expansion. It would seem he cherry picked loads that he knew would fail in order to make his chosen loads look good. I saw no 230gr HST or Ranger-T in the .45 test; or those loads represented at all in any caliber.
    I see... I don't see how having any space of fat/muscle will do anything when it hits the sternum and gets immediately fill with bone media. (my buddy was involved in a police shooting recently where his +p+ 127gr round went through an arm, through his ribcage then lungs and into a tree. no expansion)

    I think there was ranger-t in .40 cal bone test.

    I don't think we'll ever know since we shoot at frozen pork shoulders, dead animal's skull, ballistic gel that really doesn't simulate human tissue (no fat/muscle/bones)

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Yesterday and today, there has yet to be a bullet designed that is as consistent regardless of media as the 44 and 45. All of this effort and design efforts are trying to make the smaller calibers emulate big ones.

    You can take all the guess work out of your choices by either going big or, heavy for caliber to begin with.
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yesterday and today, there has yet to be a bullet designed that is as consistent regardless of media as the 44 and 45. All of this effort and design efforts are trying to make the smaller calibers emulate big ones.

    You can take all the guess work out of your choices by either going big or, heavy for caliber to begin with.
    so you're saying FMJ .45 works like a JHP 9?

    there are many .45s that fail to expand in media as well :)

  12. #27
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    "You can take all the guess work out of your choices by either going big or, heavy for caliber to begin with."

    Even though I'm willing to carry a .38 Special most of the time, this seems most sensible. When one cares enough about (about stopping) to send his very best then heavy lead with fat bullets are called for.

    All these expansion tests are fully embraced only if one also maintains a healthy belief in the tooth fairy.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    so you're saying FMJ .45 works like a JHP 9?

    there are many .45s that fail to expand in media as well :)
    Read the post again. It's self explanatory.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    I see... I don't see how having any space of fat/muscle will do anything when it hits the sternum and gets immediately fill with bone media. (my buddy was involved in a police shooting recently where his +p+ 127gr round went through an arm, through his ribcage then lungs and into a tree. no expansion)

    I think there was ranger-t in .40 cal bone test.

    I don't think we'll ever know since we shoot at frozen pork shoulders, dead animal's skull, ballistic gel that really doesn't simulate human tissue (no fat/muscle/bones)
    It was Ranger SXT. Completely different bullet, also known for poor performance.

    And, again--the bone simulacrum does NOT perform like real bone. I've hit deer in the sternum with a hollow point that did NOT just make a nice, neat hole..that sternum was missing a 2" chunk, with fragments blown into lungs...I have no reason to believe that it would be different in a human.

    In short, the test has no validity in how a bullet will perform against flesh and blood.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    It was Ranger SXT. Completely different bullet, also known for poor performance.

    And, again--the bone simulacrum does NOT perform like real bone. I've hit deer in the sternum with a hollow point that did NOT just make a nice, neat hole..that sternum was missing a 2" chunk, with fragments blown into lungs...I have no reason to believe that it would be different in a human.

    In short, the test has no validity in how a bullet will perform against flesh and blood.
    I hear ya. I've heard of them work, and I've heard of them fail. I guess it's a combination of things that make it happen. We've yet to see a 100% working ammo though, not sure if it's possible?

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