Caliber is irrelevant in a gun fight

This is a discussion on Caliber is irrelevant in a gun fight within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Carrying on the tradition of my favorite opinionated instructor he presented this information in class: The title of the study was called: Winning Officer Gun ...

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Thread: Caliber is irrelevant in a gun fight

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Caliber is irrelevant in a gun fight

    Carrying on the tradition of my favorite opinionated instructor he presented this information in class:

    The title of the study was called: Winning Officer Gun Fights (or something like that. I Googled it and it did not bring up a study.)

    Some education type gathered up the all data from literally 1000s of gun fights and in the "average" winning gun fight, these were the relevant facts:

    Distance was about 10 yards
    Approximately 12 rounds were fired by the officer
    50% hit ratio

    NOTHING was mentioned about caliber.


    On the other hand, in an officer killed scenario, the relevant facts are:

    Distance was about 7 yards (this might be 7 feet. I did not verify that.)
    Approximately 2.5 rounds were fired
    25% hit ratio

    Hmmmm. With 2.5 rounds fired with a 25% hit ratio means 0 rounds actually hit the bad guy. Again, there was no mention of caliber.

    Say what you will about your favorite caliber, but these studies shows that in a gun fight, the caliber of the gun played no statistically relevant part.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Well, go ahead and carry a .22 if you think that is a good caliber. Will save you a lot of money in range ammo. I will stick with 9mm or .45
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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Well, go ahead and carry a .22 if you think that is a good caliber. Will save you a lot of money in range ammo. I will stick with 9mm or .45
    Well, I do not think any officer carries a .22. I think the relevant calibers here are 9mm, .40 and .45. Maybe .357 Sig and 10mm. I do not think many officers carry revolvers any more, so the .357, .38 and .44 magnums are probably not involved.
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    To me, caliber seems to be very relavant.

    If someone is shooting a .32 acp at someone, and that someone is shooting back with say, 9mm on up, I'll put my $ on the shooter spraying 9mm, as long as they are both making hits.
    Unless I am misunderstanding the example.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    Well, I do not think any officer carries a .22. I think the relevant calibers here are 9mm, .40 and .45. Maybe .357 Sig and 10mm. I do not think many officers carry revolvers any more, so the .357, .38 and .44 magnums are probably not involved.
    Part of the stats was when an officer was killed. I was referring to those calibers. The study is pointless or at least the results you posted without any data or metrics behind them.
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    I agree with suntzu and oneshot.

    Caliber is not irrelevant. Otherwise, everyone would just carry a .22 or a .25 and be done with it.
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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Me thinks you guys are taking this out of context. See post #3 about relevant calibers.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    But what calibers were killing the officers? There is a stat for that also

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    Me thinks you guys are taking this out of context. See post #3 about relevant calibers.
    You posted a misleading title, then tell folks they are taking you out of context. Methinks you are simply looking for a game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    Me thinks you guys are taking this out of context. See post #3 about relevant calibers.

    Then you should have specified in the title of the thread. The gross over-generalization, "Caliber is irrelevant in a gunfight", is not very specific and because of that, it suggests that all calibers are included in that over-generalization.

    Even within the "service calibers" (9mm, .38/.357, .40/10mm, .45, what have you), there are measurable differences in penetration depth and the amount of tissue damage that each caliber produces. Because of the nearly infinite tangible and intangible variables that influence a gunfight, it is impossible to say if those differences are signifcant or not and therefore the statement "Caliber is irrelevant in a gunfight" becomes highly suspect.
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    In my opinion, most LEO are not trained enough (usually those without a Military background or those who grew up shooting firearms as a part of the culture) and they rely on accuracy through volume.

    So that all the LEO on this board do not get upset with my comments, I spent some time training two large City Dept's policemen/women for free range time (handgun and rifle) and this is a observation slanted towards LEO from larger City areas. The rural guys (the Longmires) are probably more adept at shooting.

    Yep, accuracy through volume. The caliber does not matter.

    10 Yards, 12 adv rounds and only 50% (in a stressful situation is not too bad = I'm not busting on LEO). Think about it. A lot of you shoot a lot. What if they were up against you?

    The only problem for LEO in shooting so many rounds in an engagement is that the Lawyers trying to make a name make a big deal out of it, against the LEO. Not to mention that that many rounds creates issues in the civilian urban 'beaten zone'.

    My opinion, based on the last time I had to shoot at someone (out of the USA), nobody was counting the number of rounds going down range.

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    There is some logic here.

    I will agree that caliber is irrelevant if the shooter cannot hit.

    So you googled the title of the report/study cited by the instructor and could not find anything? I find that worthy of note.

    The information you repeat here shows when an officer wins a gunfight, he fires a number of rounds and makes hits at a slightly further range than in a loss. When an officer loses, he fires only a few shots and makes no hits at a slightly closer range than a win. Which leads me to believe an officer loses, he is shot in the first volley, probably from ambush or surprise.

    If the officer cannot get his gun into operation, or cannot operate it properly, caliber is of no consequence.

    That is logically correct, but has no bearing on choice of caliber by one who has a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    NOTHING was mentioned about caliber.
    I think the title is referring to this statement because the information given in the class didn't reference caliber?

    Maybe a question mark after the thread title would make it clearer?
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    You can shoot a 45 at me all day long, as long as you do not hit me, so , caliber is irrelevant, if you are not being hit... from what I read and see here, skippin a few replies, so i can move on ..... shot placement is the most imprtant thing in a gun fight i would think, i would rather shoot you 10 times with a 22, and you miss me 20 times with a 45 ....my take on the original post is we have a lot of police officers who need to practice a little more.......but never being in the heat of the moment and the battle, i cannot say how i would do, only how i do when shooting at a target that is not shooting back.
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    Welcome to the caliber war...

    All I know is that if I am squaring off against someone and I have a choice of any rock in the quarry to hit them with, I will go for one the size of a softball over one the size of a #2 pencil eraser any day...
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