FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - Page 2

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

This is a discussion on FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by sgb Both excellent sources of information regardless of the dates of publication. Doc Roberts and his colleges are the leading professionals in ...

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Thread: FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Both excellent sources of information regardless of the dates of publication. Doc Roberts and his colleges are the leading professionals in terminal ballistics and well respected in the Professional Firearms community as well as boards frequented by professional trigger pullers. The backyard experts however will consistently post as how the "Jello Junkies" don't know what they're talking about.

    Denial is not a river in Egypt.

    We have William Hazlitt in our library. I read him a year or so back. A very perceptive fellow of his age. There's a little known adage to be found within his collected essays.

    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at hype. You may denim and jello an individual but you cannot make him respect your data."
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array pscipio03's Avatar
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    I look at it this way, when I want an opinion of how a car drives, I'm not going to ask the engineer who designed the engine. I'm gonna ask the guy who test drives them for a living.
    Read into it how you may.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pscipio03 View Post
    I look at it this way, when I want an opinion of how a car drives, I'm not going to ask the engineer who designed the engine. I'm gonna ask the guy who test drives them for a living.
    Read into it how you may.
    Difference there being that:
    -Car is not alive, and only does exactly as it is told
    -A test driver is given constant, repeated, (generally) consistent feedback, and has the luxury of just trying different things until they work

    Neither are afforded in the "street laboratory". FWIW to you and anyone else.

    BTW, nice avatar.
    Last edited by FLArmadillo; August 31st, 2012 at 11:59 PM.
    As we used to teach in the spook business, carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it - he may be very angry with you. -- Jeff Cooper

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    Quote Originally Posted by nframe357 View Post
    Yeah and he makes some idiotic suggestions for SD ammo, I'd not trust his opinion. He's worshipped on several forums as the god of SD ammo, the reality of it is, he isn't. Just look at some of his suggestions...
    What exactly are these idiotic suggestions? I don't see any
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    We have William Hazlitt in our library. I read him a year or so back. A very perceptive fellow of his age. There's a little known adage to be found within his collected essays.

    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at hype. You may denim and jello an individual but you cannot make him respect your data."
    I think you should refrain from falsely attributing a quote to someone who never said any such thing, even when meant as sarcasm. If you have an argument to make against Doc Roberts and Doc Facklers findings make it on your own and own it.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nframe357 View Post
    Yeah and he makes some idiotic suggestions for SD ammo, I'd not trust his opinion. He's worshipped on several forums as the god of SD ammo, the reality of it is, he isn't. Just look at some of his suggestions...
    His word unlike yours is well respected and substantiated by credentials and data. Please enlighten us with something that substantiates your opinion.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  7. #22
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    Here's a series of stopping power tables from Handloads.com:

    Handloads.Com - Stopping Power

    It's derived from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's work: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition.

    Using bullet data from actual shootings, clearly there is some advantage to heavier bullets, but how much? According to their data, a .45 230gr FMJ is barely more effective than a 9mm 115gr FMJ. Yet jump to JHP, and the .45 has more of an edge. Penetration figures are all over the board, but how could they not be with real life data as opposed to ballistic gel data? And their work is figured on actual shootings of human beings as far as I can tell. I'm far more likely to use a handgun in self-defense on an animal than a human being. Many animals, for shooting purposes (proportional mass), differ little anatomically from human beings. Then there are larger mammals like pigs and bears carrying significantly more muscle and fat tissue between skin and vital organs. Will JHP ammo have the same stopping power on larger game that it has on smaller animals?

  8. #23
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    After reading this FBI "paper" (several times), it gives me the impression that my second favorite carry ammo is ineffective. I love to carry my Bersa loaded with .380ACP Cor-Bon DPX. Its a little hard for me to accept that it won't stop an attack. However, I guess the important thing is that I am comfortable with it, so I'm going to continue carrying it.
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  9. #24
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    INteresting it mirrors my thoughts on over penetration. That over penetration is not a concern of any kind at all.
    English is my second language, I have been told my use of it is harsh, apologies if this is the matter.

    You know what stops a bad guy with a gun? A good guy with a gun

  10. #25
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    I believe it is American Handgunner that did a story on Hornady's Critical Duty and mentions this report. Guess it passes all of the FBI's requirements as did the .357Sig. The .45ACP could not.
    All legitimate things that are pointed out, but why did the FBI move away from the 9mm and initially go with the 10mm? And for that case, wouldn't it make sense they would have all transferred over to the FN Five-Seven the instant it was released? It routinely exceeds 2,000 fps.
    I dunno. I agree with other posters that this is a debate that has and will continue to rage. For every ballistics finding purporting one caliber, there's two more that support another.
    I'll take my chances with my .45ACP, BUT, now see the benefits of maybe loading a FMJ every other round to my JHPs.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    I think you should refrain from falsely attributing a quote to someone who never said any such thing, even when meant as sarcasm. If you have an argument to make against Doc Roberts and Doc Facklers findings make it on your own and own it.
    Duly noted. But I think you take both yourself and FBI bullet effectiveness threads far too seriously. It's ok for me to sponge off of Hazlitt for light humor in making a point. He won't mind.
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    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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    IMO, there is lots of great and not-so-great information out there. I haven't checked out the above links, but it's probably pretty helpful info. With that being said, I'll probably continue carrying what I want, though if under extreme stress wish I had something bigger/badder.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Duly noted. But I think you take both yourself and FBI bullet effectiveness threads far too seriously. It's ok for me to sponge off of Hazlitt for light humor in making a point. He won't mind.
    I have taken it seriously as the ammunition that people choose can literally be a life and death decision. As I've previously said none of the lessons learned from the Miami shootout should be ignored.

    "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." - Edmund Burke (1729-1797)


    Quote Originally Posted by troutkiller View Post
    Here's a series of stopping power tables from Handloads.com:

    Handloads.Com - Stopping Power

    It's derived from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's work: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition.

    Even many of those who are skeptical of the current method of scientifically testing ammunition and evaluating terminal ballistics have realized that Marshal and Sanow used cherry picked data to substantiate those tables. One shot stops are a matter of bullet placement and individual circumstance, not bullet caliber.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggity View Post
    What makes you an authority on physics?

    How are you more qualified than ballisticians and doctors on the subject?
    Just remember...

    Any amount of letters after a name doesn't necessarily make them a reliable authority on anything...

    Intelligence does not always correlate to wisdom!

    Anyway, all handgun calibers are worthless... cause I said so!

    Your Gun/Caliber is WORTHLESS!!!

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  15. #30
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    I look at ammo much like I look at little league baseball, millions and millions around the world play little league a few 100 play major league. Its like an upside down triangle. The odds of any of us using our hand guns in self defense are at the very bottom tip of that triangle. At the tip a .22 is prod plenty, in fact most likely over kill. Closer to the tip you might need a bigger caliber, even closer you might need multi mags, closer you might need an AR... by then you were prob killed before you ever reached for your gun.

    I carry a 9mm because I like to shoot and its cheap to shoot. I do carry it with jacketed hollow points but I'm really not sure why. Given where I live within my triangle its more of a pain to reload with hollow points each time I leave the range than it's prob worth.

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