FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
This is a discussion on FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by nframe357
Yeah and he makes some idiotic suggestions for SD ammo, I'd not trust his opinion. He's worshipped on several forums as ...
August 31st, 2012 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by nframe357
Your statement is ridiculous.
August 31st, 2012 02:54 PM
August 31st, 2012 06:16 PM
I agree, CTD.
Originally Posted by CheaperThanDirt
Even though I am a "heavy for caliber" kinda guy, none of the loads on this list look like an idiotic suggestion to me:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Barnes XPB 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
I'd carry anyone of these and feel just fine about it.
August 31st, 2012 07:15 PM
I do have a master's degree in physics. However since ballisticians likely have similar education to mine and work solely in the field at hand I will leave ammo designing up to them.
If we all ran fmj or hard cast ammo then the F = ma and K = 1/2mv ^2 argument would be hard to refute. However once we introduce things like expansion into the mix, the topic quickly goes beyond a standardized physics debate.
I personally just stick to the well respected and reviewed speer gold dots most of the time. The exception being pdx 1 in my j frame.
sent via iCarry
September 1st, 2012 10:53 AM
I'm curious. Why PDX 1 over Speer's short barrel ammo?
Originally Posted by msc8127
September 1st, 2012 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by sgb
It's amazing to me how many people throw this dispersion around on Marshal and Sanow. Do you have a source,(facts) to back this claim up?
From Evan Marshall's website: " The one thing I've been disappointed with is the feeble attacks by those individuals from the wrong side of the tracks. Their "research" has involved efforts such as calling the Homicide Section of the Detroit Police Department and asking the individual who answered if they knew Evan Marshall. When that unknown individual responded that he had never heard of me, they considered that "proof" that I had never worked there. The problem with this simple-minded approach is that any number of readers, editors, other writers, and friends had called me there on a number of occasions. Additionally, there are a number of files there with my name on them as the officer in charge.
Another individual from the wrong side of the tracks wrote a critical review of HSP. In it he listed all my criteria for including my shooting in my statistical base and then started to dispute some Glaser shootings. This is at best sloppy and at worst deceptive. Readers can search HSP&SS and not find a single Glaser or Mag Safe incident, which included the actual shooting database. One of the wrong side of the tracks gang saw me sitting in the Cor Bon booth at a Shot Show years ago and took that as proof that I was a paid consultant for Cor Bon. I reserve the right to visit with friends and if this same person had followed me, he would surmised I was also a paid consultant for Remington, Federal, Winchester, etc. Besides, I'm curious why that when the gang from the wrong side of the tracks do consulting work it's an honorable effort, but the thought of me doing it compromises my objectivity and in their eyes destroys my credibility. Again, if this is best they can do I'm not impressed.
I find it curious that they constantly whine that nobody has seen my database. What they are really saying is they haven't. A number of years ago I got a letter from one of the lads from the wrong side of the tracks saying that they thought my shooting results for 9MM 115gr jhp +P+ were fraudulent based on the fact they would not penetrate 12" in their beloved 10% gelatin. When I sent this individual 10 autopsy reports where these loads had averaged between 16-18" penetration in people, the response was to ignore it. I especially find the complaint about not publishing the sources for the data curious, since when one of their own was collecting data on actual shootings for a police publication, the "what's the source for this data crowd" were strangely silent. I guess it depends on agendas not the search for the truth.
Additionally, there have been individuals who have sent e-mail to the various servers claiming to be me and asking that this web page be removed from their directory. Such individuals are the worst kind of cowards. If this is as fraudulent as they claim it is they should be anxious to see it available as it should collapse like a house of cards.
A special thanks to a select group of people around the world know informally as "Evans Marshal's." These individuals have supplied data at great personal risk and I deeply appreciate their efforts."
Our lives come from God. So does our right to defend them.
There is only one gun law in this country, the 2nd Amendment. All else is bureaucratic nonsense that I choose to comply with or not at my discretion.
September 1st, 2012 11:11 PM
Sure. Here you go-
Originally Posted by mrwonderful
The Marshall & Sanow "Data" - Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story
M&S have been debunked (statistical manipulation, see underlined quote text below) by M. van Maanen, D. MacPherson, and M.L. Fackler.
The statistical analysis cited above states:
That the second set of results came out to later confirm the M&S study in the way that they did (and as perfectly as they did) in M&S's second book is a highly unlikely 1 to 3,246,000,000,000.
The "case probability sum" 62 increases example used above is the actual result for the comparison of the 1988 to 1992 Marshall & Sanow "data sets". From Table 1, the equivalent probability for the 1992 to 1996 Marshall & Sanow "data sets" comparison is about 4.29 (10)-6. The probability that both of these results would be obtained by chance is calculated by multiplying the two individual probabilities, which gives a combined probability of about 3.25 (10)^-13; this is about 1 in 3 trillion or 1 in 3 million million.
Like it or not, the M&S study's data was manipulated. It's results are an outright fabrication.
Last edited by 481; September 2nd, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
September 1st, 2012 11:28 PM
As I have posted in lots of places including here, when I run out of my Stock of Cor-Bon DPX I am moving to Winchester Ranger T's in all of my pistol calibers with the heaviest bullet that is sold. They are street proven and cost way less than the Cor-Bon Bullits.
If only LIFE could be a little more tender and ART a little more robust. Alan Rickman
Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
NRA Endowment Life
There are NO Silver Medals for Street Combat
Blue Thunder, I smell Victory in the Morning!
September 2nd, 2012 12:09 AM
I have read this study before & it for me anyway trumps all other "stopping power" studies.
Clearly there is no magic caliber there is no magic make of bullet.
It all comes down to making center hits. Some times again & again irrgardless of the caliber or the chosen load.
We could not have been given better advice.
September 2nd, 2012 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by sgb
M&S were merely attempting to establish a metric of measurement, they never advocated one shot stops.
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
And Lord, if today is truly the day you call me home
Let me die in a pile of empty brass."
September 2nd, 2012 01:52 PM
Theory & engineering are the sizzle for caliber choice. LE statistics for stops are...the steak.
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.
September 2nd, 2012 02:15 PM
Mainly availability on the local level. I definitely want to try out the short barrel loads, but haven't seen them locally and haven't made myself order any online yet. I wish I had a more scientific reason, but I don't. :-)
Originally Posted by chasbo00
sent via iCarry
September 3rd, 2012 12:00 AM
Some Doc Roberts insight on this from: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
Originally Posted by msc8127
"More information from Doctor Roberts: "With few exceptions, such as the Speer 135 gr +P JHP and Barnes XPB, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. [...]"
September 3rd, 2012 03:18 AM
Thanks for sharing, Wiggity!
As always, it doesn't matter what caliber or pressure ammunition you are shooting. Put as many on center mass as it takes to stop the threat.
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
September 3rd, 2012 09:31 AM
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