FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - Page 5

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

This is a discussion on FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm Wiggity, not trying to be rude here, ok? But, I would rather let you think I am a complete idiot, than ...

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  1. #61
    Member Array Wiggity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Wiggity, not trying to be rude here, ok? But, I would rather let you think I am a complete idiot, than to have to drag up the past to explain some things that I don't think it's good for me to talk about.

    However, I have also made it a life long effort to shoot medium game which more closely emulates the physical traits of an average adult human male, and use all manner of bullets both factory ammo and handloads to observe the effects. Different calibers, weights, and bullet types were used.

    You are welcome to search my threads where you will find alot of pictures and descriptions.

    Of course, as always, it's up to each person to evaluate my findings and compare the to other tests performed by others.
    Many times my findings contradict popular opinions in the field.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggity View Post
    Sounds good, let's call it a day....forever, if that sounds okay to you.
    That's not what I meant. Let me rephrase the first part.

    Part of my experience comes from doing ugly things that I would rather not think about anymore. I have no shame or guilt, but as we get older, we change. and begin to think about things from a different perspective.
    I did not mean I did not want to communicate with you.

    I have no hard feelings or emotion invested here.
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  3. #63
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    As someone who has also done the work in the autopsy room, I would concur with Dr. Roberts as well as much of Dr. Fackler's work. My personal choices for carry rounds in 9mm and .40 S&W are included in Dr. Roberts' list of effective rounds.

    I could list several very popular rounds from reputable companies that simply did not perform as claimed, at least in the cases that I have seen personally. At the end of the day, rapid and/or immediate incapacitation or death will only occur with the sudden disruption or destruction of the central nervous system or a major vascular structure that will result in abrupt hypotensive shock. That's the medical fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggity View Post
    Sounds good, let's call it a day....forever, if that sounds okay to you.


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    That's not what I meant. Let me rephrase the first part.

    Part of my experience comes from doing ugly things that I would rather not think about anymore. I have no shame or guilt, but as we get older, we change. and begin to think about things from a different perspective.
    I did not mean I did not want to communicate with you.

    I have no hard feelings or emotion invested here.
    Neither do I. And that is perfectly fine that you do not want to share those things.

    All I was trying to communicate is that we can agree to disagree on this one.
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    *Whew*
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Ammunition scientifically tested in controlled conditions by experts instead of the backyard by bubba.
    You mean by a Dentist and an Anesthesiologist? Sorry, I will stick by loads LE find effective VS some lab rat.

  8. #68
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    Lab rats... field rats... whatever.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    You mean by a Dentist and an Anesthesiologist? Sorry, I will stick by loads LE find effective VS some lab rat.
    Who do you think the "Dentist" and "Anesthesiologist" that you disparage test ammo for?

    How about these guys LE - Wound Ballistics got some disparaging remarks for these individuals as well?
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    40Bob is entitled to his own opinion on the matter.

    This is a forum. It has value beyond the constant waiving of laboratory tests in members' faces all the time.

    Are we so unsure of our ground here that we feel compelled to use these tests to bludgeon those who don't fully revere them? It's fine if folks embrace these tests to reach a decision on choice of ammunition. It's fine if they don't choose to base their choice of carry ammunition on these tests. We're not required to save them from themselves if they don't pay homage to our favored tests of the day.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    40Bob is entitled to his own opinion on the matter.

    This is a forum. It has value beyond the constant waiving of laboratory tests in members' faces all the time.

    Are we so unsure of our ground here that we feel compelled to use these tests to bludgeon those who don't fully revere them? It's fine if folks embrace these tests to reach a decision on choice of ammunition. It's fine if they don't choose to base their choice of carry ammunition on these tests. We're not required to save them from themselves if they don't pay homage to our favored tests of the day.
    +1. This says it all. We need to respect other peoples' opinions even if we don't agree with them.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    40Bob is entitled to his own opinion on the matter.

    This is a forum. It has value beyond the constant waiving of laboratory tests in members' faces all the time.

    Are we so unsure of our ground here that we feel compelled to use these tests to bludgeon those who don't fully revere them? It's fine if folks embrace these tests to reach a decision on choice of ammunition. It's fine if they don't choose to base their choice of carry ammunition on these tests. We're not required to save them from themselves if they don't pay homage to our favored tests of the day.
    Then it would seem you've ended the discussion on this subject. Based on the OP's post I mistakenly thought it concerned those pesky laboratory tests.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Who do you think the "Dentist" and "Anesthesiologist" that you disparage test ammo for?

    How about these guys LE - Wound Ballistics got some disparaging remarks for these individuals as well?
    I am not disparaging anyone, my point is by profession these two professions of doctors are about the least qualified to post about trauma treatment, any paramedic is more qualified. Not all jello testing is bad, it is however being performed wrong and thus becomes "fruit of the poisonous tree". If you were to take a shot of a 125 grain 357 magnum, use high speed film to document the temp cavity, then fill the perm cavity with dye THAT would then be a picture of success to gauge others by or a metric of measurement.

    But by shooting random bullets into jello and looking at the pretty mushroom and measuring the depth of penetration, how are you then accurately determining effectiveness with no metric? You will say, "Well, the bullets my god's suggest work see......" I will respond by saying they were lucky guesses in most cases. The 147 grain 9mm is one such load. In the aftermath of the Miami shootout Dr. Fackler praised this load, it was dismal. It took over 20 years of evolution to make it work.

  14. #74
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    Just for clarification, Dr. Roberts is a little more than just a dentist.

    Dr. Gary K. Roberts, LCDR, USNR.

    Background and Qualifications

    Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at Stanford University Medical Center, a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma Center were he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency at Navy Hospital Oakland in 1989, Roberts studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory: Letterman Army Institute of Research while on active military duty, and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association.

    Currently Roberts has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. Roberts remains a Navy Reserve Officer and has recently served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. Roberts is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations.

    Roberts is also a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of federal, state and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.

    Dr. Roberts has given us permission here to further disseminate his criticisms of the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) armor testing. As you might know, the NIJ is the U.S. Department of Justice body that has been testing and developing body armor and performance standards for ballistic & stab resistance since the mid-1970s.
    Last edited by OD*; September 8th, 2012 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Spellun'
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    481
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Just for clarification, Dr. Robert is a little more than just a dentist.
    I could never understand why folks have to resort to the character assassination via ommission of Roberts just because they don't agree with him. Guy's a well-respected, highly-trained and experienced ballistician who has probably forgotten more than we'll ever know. Hardly a "lab rat".
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