FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

This is a discussion on FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Awesome article based on pure fact. Clears up a TON of misinformation in the caliber debate. Might make a good sticky. Written by Special Agent ...

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Thread: FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

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    Member Array Wiggity's Avatar
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    Exclamation FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

    Awesome article based on pure fact. Clears up a TON of misinformation in the caliber debate. Might make a good sticky.


    Written by Special Agent Urey W. Patrick of the FBI Firearms Training unit in VA.

    FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com




    This second article on wounding ballistics is written by Dr. Gary K Roberts on a different forum. He tests ammunition and is a professional ballistician.

    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    I've got a sneaking suspicion that some modern ammo "innovations" are like fishing lures. They're designed not so much to catch fish, but more intended to catch...fisherman! I think I'll stick with the largest caliber, heaviest weight, fastest traveling bullet that I can effectively & repeatedly deliver to center mass. That's why they're not called the "Suggestions" of Physics. It's the LAW!
    Last edited by ghost tracker; August 31st, 2012 at 02:26 PM.
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    Well... yes and no. It's 23 years old and some of the content is clearly dated. The author draws heavily on Fackler's work and just about slams the door on any valuable lessons from real-world shootings with his "Allure of Shooting Incident Analyses" section. However, the conclusions give some good advice, notably that energy, temporary wound cavity and "knock down power" don't wound, that a minimum level of penetration is necesary, and "the edge is always with the bigger bullet."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    I've got a sneaking suspicion that some modern ammo "innovations" are like fishing lures. They're designed not so much to catch fish, but more intended to catch...fisherman! I think I'll stick with the largest caliber, heaviest weight, fasting traveling bullet that I can effectively & repeatedly deliver to center mass. That's why they're not called the "Suggestions" of Physics. It's the LAW!
    It's not necessarily the biggest/heaviest/fastest bullet that causes the most damage. Faster leads to lower penetration in JHP pistol bullets. A smaller grain bullet from the same caliber pistol will penetrate further than the big bullet. There are ALOT of variables that you are not educated on; and before attempting to persuade others to go with your (with respect) ignorant viewpoint, I suggest doing the proper research.

    Ammo manufacturers have done alot of testing. That, is a fact. If you buy from a reputable company, and its not something like Zombie-Max, then you get what you pay for. You are paying for the engineering and research. They attempt to balance penetration vs expansion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    I've got a sneaking suspicion that some modern ammo "innovations" are like fishing lures. They're designed not so much to catch fish, but more intended to catch...fisherman! I think I'll stick with the largest caliber, heaviest weight, fasting traveling bullet that I can effectively & repeatedly deliver to center mass. That's why they're not called the "Suggestions" of Physics. It's the LAW!
    What makes you an authority on physics?

    How are you more qualified than ballisticians and doctors on the subject?
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    Without data on the .40-cal, which came out a year after the report was released, it doesn't really do much to resolve today's debate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggity View Post
    What makes you an authority on physics? How are you more qualified than ballisticians and doctors on the subject?
    Please note I wrote of MY suspicion & MY intention. I am an authority on absolutely nothing. Patently less-qualified than most here to even have an opinion. But I AM familiar with Newton's views on speed & mass. I've also been around shooting literature & gun forums long enough to recognize a long-past current, well-past debated, dead-beaten horseof an FBI report that you somehow believe is suddenly an eye-opening revelation. Carry any ammo or opinion you choose. Yet please spare me your insulant, petulant inquisition.
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    Both excellent sources of information regardless of the dates of publication. Doc Roberts and his colleges are the leading professionals in terminal ballistics and well respected in the Professional Firearms community as well as boards frequented by professional trigger pullers. The backyard experts however will consistently post as how the "Jello Junkies" don't know what they're talking about.

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    tl/dr
    Carry the heaviest JHP for your caliber, aim for the chest regardless of AOA, and keep putting them there.

    Let the white-coats do the thinking...practice, practice, practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmglock23 View Post
    Without data on the .40-cal, which came out a year after the report was released, it doesn't really do much to resolve today's debate.
    Please read the second article.
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    There have been lots of defensive ammo threads this week.

    Dr. Roberts is the one who did all the research for the Self Defense Ammo FAQ

    It amazes me how many people make an ammo decision based on how they feel about something or what they think they know rather than the facts of the matter. Doc Roberts has done all the work for you. You just have to read his list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CheaperThanDirt View Post
    There have been lots of defensive ammo threads this week.

    Dr. Roberts is the one who did all the research for the Self Defense Ammo FAQ

    It amazes me how many people make an ammo decision based on how they feel about something or what they think they know rather than the facts of the matter. Doc Roberts has done all the work for you. You just have to read his list.

    Thank you for posting this.
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    The FBI report, though definitely outdated, did have a few good points. The post by Doc Roberts in the forum also made several good points and the ammo he recommends are good solid performers.

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    The FBI report by Urey is dated only in the sense that it was written more than two decades ago.

    The laws of physics and the physiology of the human body dictate how bullets act within the human body. Neither has changed since the FBI produced the report and its conclusions remain as relevant as ever.
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    Yeah and he makes some idiotic suggestions for SD ammo, I'd not trust his opinion. He's worshipped on several forums as the god of SD ammo, the reality of it is, he isn't. Just look at some of his suggestions...

    Quote Originally Posted by CheaperThanDirt View Post
    There have been lots of defensive ammo threads this week.

    Dr. Roberts is the one who did all the research for the Self Defense Ammo FAQ

    It amazes me how many people make an ammo decision based on how they feel about something or what they think they know rather than the facts of the matter. Doc Roberts has done all the work for you. You just have to read his list.

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