Originally Posted by gottabkiddin
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Depending on what firearm^^^^^^^^^^
you are talking about.
Will it shoot a quality HP reliably?
Will you be shooting through 3 layers of courduroy, 2 sweaters, 2 flannel shirts, a tee shirt and a parka that could be used to hike up Mt. Everest?All things considered, I personally use Speer GD or Golden Saber or Federal HST.
If I knew I was going to shoot through a whole bunch of heavy clothing, I would opt for the FMJ.
Originally Posted by TX expat
Obviously a wisenheimer!:image035::haha:
It's true! I read it on the internets!
Originally Posted by oneshot
Irresponsible, hmmm, that may be asuming a lot. The assumption seems to be the BG is getting hit the bullets are passing through and going where? Causng collateral damage?
What if? What if the BG is not hit, our bullet(s) miss and that hi-tech. high velocity hollow point round hits a bystander ? Lets say hits him in the wrist. Might now lose a hand. Would that hand have been saved if a FMJ had been used?
The point I am trying to make is in something as dynamic and totally unprediceable as a gunfight the word "irresponable" could rear its ugly head in ways one would have ever imagined.
If we go armed about our day we should use the ammuunition ( and firearm ) that gives us the best chance with the most confedence of hitting our intended target.
Adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, moving targets, darkness, someone moving to the wrong spot at the wrong time, maybe all these things happening at the same time while one is firing their weapon.
Irresponsible for using FMJ's ?
No I don't think so if that's what gives you confidence.
Like the man said "the best fight is the fight you that you can avoid."
ask your self this... how many police/swat teams carry FMJ?...
ill go with none... and for good reason...
As usual, "it depends" on a lot of variables, many of which have been explored in various posts. I'll just try to reinforce two points and offer one more that is a slightly different take on the matter.
First, as others have said, what type of threat do you consider most likely? In other words, what's your best estimate of the job you'll ask your bullet to do? Try to match your ammo to that task. You don't have a crystal ball, so you can only do your best & then should sleep the sleep of the just at night.
Second: you know what you can afford to practice with, what's reliable in your weapon, what's available to you. Most critical characteristic of any defense ammo is that it goes bang and cycles your gun; otherwise, it's of little use.
Finally, I'd like to emphasize a point we all take for granted just a bit too much sometimes: namely, you're the good guy, trying to help & protect yourself and the society we cherish by standing up to violent criminals as best you can. Do your best & we all wish you the best. For all practical purposes, all military, police and civilian handguns were loaded with solid projectiles until quite recently in any case, so you're not violating all traditions and customary practices & showing brazen disregard for innocent bystanders by using ammo that sometimes overpenetrates, but often has done a fine job. Especially since expanding bullet designs are likewise something of a hit or miss proposition. You're using ball ammo, not wildly tossing hand grenades amidst crowds of innocents just to save your own hide :-)
The only irresponsible guy in the scenario is the violent criminal. You're a good guy with a conscience, doing the best he can. We need more like you. It's the same reason I wouldn't consider YOU at fault if a home invader cut himself on window glass while breaking into your home, or slipped on the icy steps you "failed" to clean up the morning after a snowstorm and broke his miserable neck. There's no way on God's green earth that I would call you irresponsible for using the ammo the Army has required me, and millions of others, to use for more than a century.
Too many of our fellow citizens are quick to blame the good guys for every contingency, rather than placing the blame squarely on the violent criminal who HAS CAUSED THE ENTIRE PROBLEM.
I've never been elephant hunting, but everything I've ever read indicates a .375 H&H or larger are preferred, not small diameter. Also, today's premium defense loads expansion is related to bullet design more so than velocity. The Winchester Ranger T 147 grain 9mm, Federal HST 147 grain 9mm, and Remington Golden Saber 147 grain 9mm are all just under 1000 fps and do expand, as does the 230 grain Ranger T .45 ACP, or Federal 230 grain .45 ACP HST HP, again both under 1000 fps. 1200 fps is not required for expansion.
Originally Posted by Nebraska12
I sure miss SuperVel ammo from the 60s, thats what our dept carried it was great stuff. Back then all the ammo came 50 per box
Go to SGAmmo.com, most premium defensive loads are 50 rounds per box, depending on caliber ranging from $25 to $32 per 50.. Golden Sabers are 25 rounds, but the 147 grain 9mm sells for about $11.95 per 25. They have great service, reasonable shipping rates. There are other good vendors online offering similar pricing for 50 round boxes.
Originally Posted by shadowwalker
A miss is a miss. I won't matter if it's a hollow point miss of an FMJ miss. Either one will do the job.
just to add my 2c, I choose to carry Hornaday Critical Defense FTX's (filled expansion tip). its supposed to be the best of both worlds so to speak. the tip is filled with a polymer so the bullet will still expand once through any clothing or other light barriers.
Hornady Critical Defense .40 S&W 165 gr FTX: SIM-test* w/denim - YouTube
Hollow points are somehow "illegal"? Defending oneself and/or one's family (or a complete innocent stranger?) is now a questionable action? How? I prefer to use inexpensive ammo for practice, expensive ammo if inexpensive is not available. Deciding if one round is reliable in your weapon is a personal decision, as is whether to fire or not. I don't feel it takes boxes of ammo to responsibly make that decision. Usually a couple magazines should do. My favorite test for ammo & weapon is a "mixed bag": i.e., twenty bulk 22lrs from one box & 10 STINGERS and 20 bulk from someone else and 5 MiniMags loaded at random in the Bobcat; when they all go off I'm confident my weapon will work. And, for me, 9mm is not more difficult: FMJ bulk from a non-reloadable source (Wolf?), then some regular brass (Federal or White Box) that is reloadable and a couple from the expensive box of the newest SD stuff. When they all go off at a random loading I'm as confident as I feel I need to be. Having a CZ-75 makes that an easy test. It FLAT works.
p.s. Double strike capability is an important factor in an automatic pistol in my humble opinion. I'd rather squeeze twice than re-rack the slide... Both, if needed.
Originally Posted by R.W.Dale
RWD writes the above; and respectfully, I do not agree.
As I recall from my physics classes (admittedly several decades ago) f=ma, meaning force equals mass times acceleration. If one assumes that deceleration equals acceleration, just in the opposite direction, then force = mass times deceleration. If the mass is the same between the fmj and jhp projectiles, and if the fmj passes through the bg, however the jhp expands and stops inside the bg, then decel is greater in the latter case, and force (damage) is higher.
This is why a little piece of light weight foam shed from the external tanks can (tragically) bring down a space shuttle. In this case, the acceleration is so high that the light weight of the foam still damages the shuttle tile. When the acceleration (or deceleration) is higher, the force is greater, and thus the physical damage.
Contrary opinion welcomed, and I'll cheerfully admit it if I'm in error.
First off, you are not irresponsible. You are a responsible citizen for having a permit and trying to protect yourself and others. I hope you never have to fire your weapon at anybody, but if you do, chances are there is not going to be a good guy standing behind the bad guy. If there is, you will question shooting no matter what, but if they are about to harm your family, you will shoot anyway. I wouldn't dwell on it, but if it bothers you, go ahead and switch to an expanding hollow point. There will be more energy transfered to the bad guy and less comming out the other side.
The damage done by the expanding projectile is not due to expending it's energy on the target. It's done by the larger hole the HP creates due to it's larger diameter and flatter leading surface. If this same HP expands and goes through the bg it will do slightly more damage than if it stayed in the bad guy because it would crush more tissue. The FMJ does less damage because of it's shape, pointed end. A round nose bullet crushes much less tissue than a flattened bullet. About 69% of the bullets diameter for an FMJ and about 82% of the bullets expanded diameter for an HP.
Originally Posted by DZUS
Actually if you want to read a really (long) in depth study of handgun wound ballistics follow the link below. It's a report by the USDoJ and it was reprinted on Firearmstactical.com.
See the report here. It's all words, so no gory photos or anything else that might be objectionable.
Basically, by that report the bottom line is penetration. Handgun rounds need to penetrate into vital organs and disrupt their function in order to stop the threat from the BG. The temporary wound cavity (and they do say that even lowly pistol rounds do create a temporary cavity) does not stop the BG. The permanent wound cavity does not stop the BG unless that trauma disrupts a major blood bearing organ where blood loss creates incapacitation. Obviously, CNS disruption is the clear 'winner' with regards to quick incapacitation.