Which is more important in ballistics? - Page 2

Which is more important in ballistics?

This is a discussion on Which is more important in ballistics? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by msgt/ret Shot placement + impact energy = threat stopped. Repeat as necessary....

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Thread: Which is more important in ballistics?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    Shot placement + impact energy = threat stopped.
    Repeat as necessary.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
    Ayn Rand


  2. #17
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    Both IMHO.

    And Mas also tends to prove it in this article.

    Look at the loads/bullet weight, no matter what grain, and the FPS and you will see that this is indicitive of this idea..

    Here are some paragraphs from the article:

    9mm;
    For many years, the “Illinois State Police load” – a 115-grain standard JHP launched at some 1,300 feet per second (fps) – proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available. It still works great. Federal’s version of this load, the 9BPLE, is standard issue for the DeKalb County lawmen, on the tough turf that surrounds and encompasses of Atlanta, Georgia.

    These guys get into so many firefights that they’ve drawn political heat for “shooting too many people.” They have proven that when they shoot people with a 115-grain JHP doing 1,300 fps out of their issue Beretta service pistols, the bad guys go down and stop trying to kill them.
    AND....
    Still, the faster bullets seem to be the way to go. There is much more corollary tissue damage around the wound channels with the faster 9mms, with medical examiners documenting “macerated” flesh, that is, tissue chopped up like burrito filling. You don’t see that with subsonic rounds, even though a high-tech modern 147-grain may actually expand slightly more than a lighter 9mm bullet, simply because it has “more lead to spread.”

    357 Magnum

    One cartridge stands above all others in this caliber in the history of American law enforcement: the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollow point loaded to a velocity in the 1,400 fps range (from a 4-inch barrel). Some experts argue whether the wide-mouthed Federal version of this load, or the scallop-jacket Remington version that originally popularized the 125-grain .357 among cops, is the single best of the breed.

    .40 S&W
    It appears that the medium-weight bullets at higher velocities are providing the best combination of penetration depth, expansion, and overall decisiveness of ending encounters. Not the 165-grain subsonic .40, the so-called “minus-P,” but 165-grain JHPs traveling at 1,140 fps and 155 grainers at about 1,200 fps. The latter has worked very well for the U.S. Border Patrol, which seems to have used mostly the Remington brand.

    Read more here,
    Tactical Life Defense Loads of Choice: The Word from the Street
    sensei2 and Bad Bob like this.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array multistage's Avatar
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    A hole or two through the slats and boilermaker has been known to get to get the job done.


    Here is my own mathematical theorem to determine the best formula:

    X brand of weapon chambered for Y cartridge added to Z brand of ammunition, multiplied by mag capacity, multiplied by sum of magazines carried, added to competence and assessment.

    As usual, be your own dog.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array grouse's Avatar
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    "When faced with the choice between muzzle velocity and bullet weight always go with bullet weight".

    Elmer Keith
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  5. #20
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    Have you ever noticed how all the gel tests with the various popular namebrand SD rounds perform pretty much alike, even in different calibers? Shoot what you're best with and put them where it counts.If you do, tThe BG isn't going to say, "Oh, that was only a (******)."
    sensei2 likes this.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by imthduke View Post
    In a defensive rd for a handgun which is more important to consider....muzzle velocity or muzzle energy?
    I'll go with Muzzle energy myself. I say that due to the information listed below....
    From here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W......The .40 S&W cartridge has been popular with law enforcement agencies in the United States, Canada, and Australia. While possessing nearly identical accuracy,[13] drift and drop, it has an energy advantage over the 9×19mm Parabellum, and with a more manageable recoil than the 10*mm Auto cartridge.[6] Marshall & Sanow (and other hydrostatic shock proponents) contend that with good JHP bullets, the more energetic loads for the .40*S&W can also create hydrostatic shock in human-sized living targets.[14][15]Based on ideal terminal ballistic performance in ordnance gelatin during lab testing in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the .40*S&W earned status as "the ideal cartridge for personal defense and law enforcement".[7][16] Apart from the imperfect relationship between ordnance gelatin ballistics and actual stopping power, critics pointed to the reduced power of the round compared with the 10*mm Auto it was based on. Ballistically the .40*S&W is almost identical to the .38-40 Winchester introduced in 1874, as they share the same bullet diameter, bullet weight, and similar muzzle velocity.[17] The energy of the .40*S&W exceeds standard-pressure .45*ACP loadings, generating between 350-foot-pound (470*J) and 500-foot-pound (680*J) of energy, depending on bullet weight. Both the .40*S&W and the 9*mm Parabellum operate at a 35,000*psi (240*MPa) SAAMI maximum, compared to a 21,000*psi (150*MPa) maximum for .45*ACP.[18]
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

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  7. #22
    Member Array R.W.Dale's Avatar
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    The only thing that matters is what you put a bullet hole in.

    Velocity and energy don't stop bad guys or kill game in the field. Bullet holes on the otherhand do.

  8. #23
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    Just hit the target, then hit it again nothing else madders.

  9. #24
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    what is more important in an automobile, engine, transmission, tires or gas/electricity?

    IMO, performance in any bullet is a balance between bullet design, weight, and velocity. to try and take just one element and describe it as the most (or least) important ignores the fact that without each element, you get less than optimal performance.

    i leave out caliber, because that's tied to weight, and energy, which is a factor of weight and velocity.

    if you start talking about what bullet DOES, such as penetration, crush cavity, expansion, then you get into other controversial areas. here i will only say that penetration without expansion has not proven to work too well, nor has expansion without penetration.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Maybe this thread you started will help:

    Which is more important in ballistics? - The Firing Line Forums
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
    - H. G. Wells -

  11. #26
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    I always find that mass * the velocity = virtual weight. So the fast and light bullet can do as much damage as a slow and heavy bullet but if you were to increase the velocity of a heavy bullet it's gonna do more damages.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Another

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=678341

  13. #28
    Member Array FLArmadillo's Avatar
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    Is there a problem with people starting similar threads on multiple forums?
    As we used to teach in the spook business, carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it - he may be very angry with you. -- Jeff Cooper

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLArmadillo View Post
    Is there a problem with people starting similar threads on multiple forums?
    Yeah! Too many of the same threads on multiple forums and the internet gets lopsided and people's computers start falling over.

    You didn't know that?
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLArmadillo View Post
    Is there a problem with people starting similar threads on multiple forums?
    I just find it funny that the same guy starts the same discussion on several forums at the same time. Not just once.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

    “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.”
    - H. G. Wells -

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