SHTF: 22LR vs .223

This is a discussion on SHTF: 22LR vs .223 within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "First I would tell you do not buy so many rounds in 22lr as the brass sweats and it jams unless you use it in ...

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Thread: SHTF: 22LR vs .223

  1. #31
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    "First I would tell you do not buy so many rounds in 22lr as the brass sweats and it jams unless you use it in a bolt."

    Huh? I've got some very old .22s and have yet to find any "sweat."
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  3. #32
    Member Array Fisher10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ping.brady View Post
    2-in-1... so both.

    5.56 AR with 8 mags + .22LR conversion bolt with 3 mags + little extra ammo for each
    I have considered getting a .22 conversion kit for my AR, but unless you have a 1:12 twist rate, the barrel's twist rate just isn't suitable for the lightweight projectiles of .22lr, which require a slower twist rate to be accurate. Because of the gas port in the barrel, you're also limited to copper plated rounds. You don't want to shoot bare lead bullets past that gas port. With this in mind, I would rather spend a little more money and get a Ruger 10/22. 2 guns are better than 1.

    The .22 is an extremely important caliber to have for survival, especially if you have quiet sub-sonic rounds. I would think a suppressed 10/22 with sub-sonics would be a wonderful tool. However, thinking that a .22 is superior to a real fighting rifle in a fighting rifle caliber is foolish. .223 is an excellent round for home defense and even with M193 FMJ ammo, it will penetrate much less than FMJ handgun ammo while having far superior stopping power because of tumbling and fragmentation. Using ballistic tipped or soft point ammo would decrease penetration even more. If you need more penetration, you can get bonded soft points or solid copper bullets like the TSX. Watch these videos: Rifles for Home Defense - YouTube You can and should have a .22 AND a .223. Not just one.

    FWIW, I buy factory .223 for around .30 cents per round. I reload .223 for .20 cents per round.
    I suggest getting a quality AR-15 over the Mini-14. It will cost a little more, but you'll have a HUGE variety and availability of parts, magazines, accessories. The AR-15 has a better reputation for accuracy than a Mini-14/30. Seriously, almost every firearms enthusiast and LE agencies have an AR-15. They are EVERYWHERE.

    If you do leave your home, you aren't going to be able to pack your whole arsenal and all of your ammo so I think the borderline ridiculous amount of ammo you're buying would be pretty pointless. You will have to move quickly, and draw little attention.
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher10 View Post

    I suggest getting a quality AR-15 over the Mini-14. It will cost a little more, but you'll have a HUGE variety and availability of parts, magazines, accessories. The AR-15 has a better reputation for accuracy than a Mini-14/30. Seriously, almost every firearms enthusiast and LE agencies have an AR-15. They are EVERYWHERE.

    If you do leave your home, you aren't going to be able to pack your whole arsenal and all of your ammo so I think the borderline ridiculous amount of ammo you're buying would be pretty pointless. You will have to move quickly, and draw little attention.
    The AR-15 is designed to be cleaned. I never did figure out how to get inside my Ruger Mini-14. Mini-30? With all that cheap ammo around with dirty powder? Clean?

    Of course, when/if the OP needs to relocate, looters breaking in are going to be going "SCORE!!!! WOW!!!!"

  5. #34
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    As others have said, I would get the H*** out of Kalifornia at the very first opportunity.
    If nothing else, Tenn is a lot more gun friendly.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    The AR-15 is designed to be cleaned. I never did figure out how to get inside my Ruger Mini-14.


    Actually, an AR is designed such that you lose all those itty bitty pieces in the grass when you need to take the blasted thing apart at night. Especially the cotter pin and cam that keep the bolt and bolt carrier group together... Ask me how I know...

    In contrast, the Garand-derived Mini 14 breaks down into large parts that cannot get lost. And the op rod-driven action keeps the bolt and receiver clean and cool. It does not burn off its lube like an AR does.

    As far as the original question goes - I have a small stockpile of pistol ammo, shotgun shells, and center-fire rifle ammo (5.56 and .30-30). However, I have much more .22, for the simple reason that I can afford it. If I burn through everything else, I have no issue with using our 10/22 for defensive purposes as a last resort.

    That said, I would imagine it would be far better to have a working knowledge of many different types of firearms, so that you can take them off of the dearly departed BGs, and use them yourself. After all, you really only need enough ammo and guns to shoot the BGs - and take their guns and ammo.

    So - rather than spending a whole bunch of money on guns and ammo, better to spend time at the range learning to operate and maintain the more common action types...AR, AK, Garand (M1, M1A, Mini 14/30), lever gun, pump shotgun, semi auto shotgun, etc.

    JMHO.
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  7. #36
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    My point about the AR is, all guns are eventually going to need parts replaced because they are worn out, broken or lost. The AR-15 is extremely popular and replacement parts are going to be found everywhere. I have no idea who would sell or have Mini-14 parts locally. It is very serviceable and doesn't require an armorer to work on it. As with any firearm, disassembling it at night and in the grass is probably not going to end well.
    If for some reason you can't stand a direct gas impingement gun like the AR and require a piston driven rifle, get an AK in 7.62x39 or 5.45.

    With the exception of the bolt tail which doesn't contact anything, grease doesn't 'burn' off of an AR-15. It stays put. I'm a grease guy.

    I wholly agree with 10thmtn, instead of buying another 10,000 rounds of ammo you wouldn't use in an actual SHTF situation, learning how to be proficient with the guns you have and any gun you're likely to come across would be a much better investment.

  8. #37
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    All guns and ammo and no training means you bought somebody else a bunch of ammo and guns,in all reality small groups or a family are going to have a hard time defending against not only a larger force,but a force that has training in Urban warfare.
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  9. #38
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    I don't see a longer range gun there..... something to consider.

    One reason the French Foreign Legion using the Lebel into the later 60's was simple.... they could shoot people @ 800-1000 yrds, who had rifles that weren't very effective past 400 yrds. Just saying......
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    What's your opinion on the effectiveness of .22LR vs .223 for a suburban environment in a SHTF senario? I just picked up a Rugar 10/22 with 25,000 rounds of ammo. My reasons for going with the .22:

    Cost, .22 LR .04 cents per round/.223 about .40 cents a round.
    Wait a sec, you can get .223 for under half a cent per round?? Please tell me where!!

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayTee View Post
    Wait a sec, you can get .223 for under half a cent per round?? Please tell me where!!
    He wrote .40, which means 40 cents

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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    All guns and ammo and no training means you bought somebody else a bunch of ammo and guns,in all reality small groups or a family are going to have a hard time defending against not only a larger force,but a force that has training in Urban warfare.
    I absolutely agree with the need for training, that's why i'm already scheduled at Frontsight. My home is a highly defensive 2 story floor plan. All windows would be boarded up. One proplem with everyone's assumption of highly skilled assailants is MOST people dont have massive stores of ammo. As already stated, your guns will be clubs. How many rounds of "00" buck does the average person have on hand? In a true SHTF senario ammo would be depleted and quickly scarce.

    IMHO the people that have large stores of ammo will have also prepped for SHTF and will bunker down. I don't care how much training you have it's best to avoid conflict. I may not be a navy seal but with a group of guys and my ammo supply i have a much better chance of survival that most of my neighbors. There are many soft targets the roving bands of "zombies" will go after before me. All I have to do is put one down and the other 19 trying to get into my home will run. People will be much more fearfull when they know an ambulance won't be there to cart them off to a hospital.

    If a SHTF senario doesn't go down I still feel better with my safe full of security as oppose to some fiat currency floating in bits and bites. I ammo prices skyrocket it could turn out to be a good investment, or better yet allow me to continue training while most are complaining about the high price of ammo and reloading.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    My home is a highly defensive 2 story floor plan. All windows would be boarded up.

    All I have to do is put one down and the other 19 trying to get into my home will run. People will be much more fearfull when they know an ambulance won't be there to cart them off to a hospital.
    You've made some unsupportable assumptions there. Who says the other 19 won't also be armed to the teeth and just as or more dertermined as you.

    And your fortress? Who needs guns. A beer bottle, rag and 12 ozs of gasoline will do the trick. A fire on the first floor will nullify your defensive plan in a matter of minutes. Good luck with the boarded up windows. Bunkers and fortesses have historically been breached. Sometimes all it takes is time.

    I prefer to have the option to bug out for safer areas rather than trap myself in a corner.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #43
    Member Array GetSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    You've made some unsupportable assumptions there. Who says the other 19 won't also be armed to the teeth and just as or more dertermined as you.

    And your fortress? Who needs guns. A beer bottle, rag and 12 ozs of gasoline will do the trick. A fire on the first floor will nullify your defensive plan in a matter of minutes. Good luck with the boarded up windows. Bunkers and fortesses have historically been breached. Sometimes all it takes is time.

    I prefer to have the option to bug out for safer areas rather than trap myself in a corner.
    Bug out is the last resort but I have that planned as well. If cars are working I have a trailer loaded and a place in the foothills 30 minutes by car. Just don't have as much stashed thier and it would be rough for the kids. I'm not assuming I can live through anything, just trying my best to prepare with family. Hopefully I never need that ammo and can pass it down to my son.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GetSmith View Post
    Bug out is the last resort but I have that planned as well. If cars are working I have a trailer loaded and a place in the foothills 30 minutes by car. Just don't have as much stashed thier and it would be rough for the kids. I'm not assuming I can live through anything, just trying my best to prepare with family. Hopefully I never need that ammo and can pass it down to my son.
    And what makes you assume the road will be passable, that you won't be stopped by armed looters along the way. That your
    vehicle and all your stuff won't be stolen or burned.

    See, the problem with trying to prepare for these doomsday scenarios is, amongst many things, the highly variable
    nature of what might actually occur.

    Meanwhile, consider this, right now in this world and in modern European nations, there is 25% unemployment or more.
    There may be unrest, but there is no chaos.

    During our Great Depression we had 25% unemployment +, and though there was great social dislocation, we did not
    devolve into anarchy.

    There was no anarchy in Japan as it neared the end of its rope after being twice nuked. Chaotic & anarchic SHTF scenarios
    are partly a function of the character of the people enduring the adversity. Even in Germany there was only brief
    lawlessness in isolated sectors as the country was invaded from all sides, and much of that was due to poor behavior
    by Russian troops.

    I presume you are an American, a citizen of 'The Home of the Brave.' Try thinking that way.
    Preparing for a prolonged SHTF scenario in which chaos reigns and government authority disappears means you have
    NO faith in our institutions or our people. It means you have no faith in your local police and fire fighters; none in
    the National Guard, Zero in the National Military, little for our civic leaders and religious leaders.

    Aside from the paranoid aspect, the thought itself shows a shameful view of your countrymen.

    Even at the worst of the cold war, when people were building bomb shelters, I do not recall many (if any) discussions
    of a post catastrophe dog eat dog world///or as some here would have it, man shoots man world.


    the self-discipline and character of the p
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    Ah, the voice of reason is such a killjoy...
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