.223 and 12ga over penetration concerns

This is a discussion on .223 and 12ga over penetration concerns within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; How concerned should I be with over penetration of both .223 and 12ga related to a round exiting the house and entering an adjacent house. ...

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Thread: .223 and 12ga over penetration concerns

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    .223 and 12ga over penetration concerns

    How concerned should I be with over penetration of both .223 and 12ga related to a round exiting the house and entering an adjacent house. Right now my primary sector of fire when using my AR or shoot gun would go out either a second story window or the front of my house and the nearest house is approx 50 yards away. I am not concerned with internal walls, as it is just my wife and I. Also my primary and secondary sectors of fire with shoulder fire weapons don't cross the two guest bedrooms if we do have people over. How concerned should I be using 12ga OO or #4 buckshot or 55ga .223 FMJs? I'm looking to order something .223 that would fragment more than FMJs. I've seen what M855 will do at close range, and I think something that would fragment more would be a whole lot better. Thanks

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    For .223 you'll be looking for a 75 or 77 gr BTHP.

    There are plenty of home made studies and comparisons online comparing these types of things. The Box O' Truth is a website that has some testing on drywall penetration with various loads, etc...

    Personally - I don't think about it that much. My shotgun is loaded with 00 buck, and my AR is loaded with 75 gr Hornady 5.56.

    Austin

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    Member Array MoparNut's Avatar
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    The OP does ask a good question. As to not thinking about it too much it is your social and legal responsibility in every sense of the way to know what you are shooting and where it might end up.

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    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    How concerned should I be with over penetration of both .223 and 12ga related to a round exiting the house and entering an adjacent house. Right now my primary sector of fire when using my AR or shoot gun would go out either a second story window or the front of my house and the nearest house is approx 50 yards away. I am not concerned with internal walls, as it is just my wife and I. Also my primary and secondary sectors of fire with shoulder fire weapons don't cross the two guest bedrooms if we do have people over. How concerned should I be using 12ga OO or #4 buckshot or 55ga .223 FMJs? I'm looking to order something .223 that would fragment more than FMJs. I've seen what M855 will do at close range, and I think something that would fragment more would be a whole lot better. Thanks
    Take a BIG step back.

    If you ever HAVE to fire your weapons inside your home THE LAST THING you will think about is where the bullet or projectiles will go if you miss.

    DECIDE NOW that you will NOT use any munition which will pass through exterior walls and still have enough energy to kill a hundred yards away.

    This means (at a minimum ) NO 12ga slugs , NO FMJ rifle rounds , and NO super duper magnum handguns that throw an ounce of metal!

    I suggest using ONLY expanding handgun bullets , #4 buck or smaller, and maybe even prefragmented rifle ammo.

    New defensive ammo is being developed constantly, take a look at the cutting edge stuff.
    -------
    -SIG , it's What's for Dinner-

    know your rights!
    http://www.handgunlaw.us

    "If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
    {Bernhard Goetz}

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    No need to over-think it. Keep some slugs on hand but load the shotgun with buckshot. As for the AR, a mag load of Hornady TAP should suffice. If you need a second mag full, you're in such a bad situation that hitting distant neighbors' houses will be the last thing you need to worry about.
    Smitty
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    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    To be clear - I don't think about it anymore. I have chosen what is best for me. I'm done thinking about it.
    That said, the odds of me needing to use a long gun in my home are slim. Misses are always a concern - and a responsibility - but I would rather stop the threat effectively than use pre fragmented ammo or smaller shot than the situation requires. Everyone has to make their own decisions on this. In general, if you are shooting a human, it makes sense to use a projectile designed and proven to be effective at stopping human threats. I would not use anything else to defend myself. Others have widely differing opinions on this. Varmint bullets from ARs, Birdshot from shotguns etc...

    There is plenty of reading you can do. I would use 1 buck if it was available - but instead I'll take 00 over 4 buck every time.

    Austin

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    Distinguished Member Array Hodad's Avatar
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    Birdshot in the 12 GA.

    Buck shot and slugs can and do penetrate interior and exterior walls. Believe me when I say birdshot will do the trick.

    As for .223. Velocity will fragment most .223 rounds when it hits a wall, but I would use a hollow point to make sure.

    I think there is a Guns and Ammo video demonsrating this. Go to their website and have a look.
    "Life is tough but it's really tough if you are stupid"

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    Member Array 40CalCenterMass's Avatar
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    I reload my .223 and prefer the Hornady 55gr VMAX with a light powder load (tested and proven reliability). I dont really consider overpenetration as it is just the wife and I and if I had to use the AR for home defense I would not be shooting at any neighbors (just the way the house is set up, neighbors on west side but 99 out of 100 scenarios are aiming east or south.....too many walls to get to the neighbors in the 1 of 100) You would have to have a serious load in a 12 gauge to get enough penetration to travel through to your neighbors. As others have said look on youtube or just google what you are asking and do research. NO FMJ 223 or SLUGS in 12g is my only opinion.

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    New Member Array CTone03's Avatar
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    I think it's a valid concern. Shotguns are great, but hitting a little scumbag square with a slug may still see that projectile go through him, your wall(s), and still have enough gas to go into a neighbor's house with authority. Buckshot has multiple rounds going everywhere where you can't control them, and birdshot hasn't shown to be lethal by any margin I'm aware of. The mighty 223 Remington has shown to be the perfect home cartridge from my own testing - Legion's Fate: Home defense guns

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodad View Post
    Birdshot in the 12 GA.

    Buck shot and slugs can and do penetrate interior and exterior walls. Believe me when I say birdshot will do the trick.

    As for .223. Velocity will fragment most .223 rounds when it hits a wall, but I would use a hollow point to make sure.

    I think there is a Guns and Ammo video demonsrating this. Go to their website and have a look.
    At the risk of repeating the story ad nauseum, I mightily disagree with the use of birdshot for defense unless it's the only thing around. Years ago while bird hunting, I was confronted by a rabid coyote who showed no fear of a human in broad daylight. He caught a 1-ounce load of 7-1/2s in the chest at maybe 5 yards which barely staggered him. A second round - this time, a 1-1/8 oz load of #6 knocked him down but didn't anchor him. I reloaded with a magnum 4 and put that into the back of his head which concluded the episode. This critter was a sickly, mangy thing that couldn't have weighed 50 pounds... much less a motivated, aggressive adult human.

    At the time I had no handguns at home but kept birdshot in the magazine of the shotgun (20 ga auto). After that incident, I kept various loads of buckshot on hand for HD uses.
    Smitty
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    Member Array Fisher10's Avatar
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    I would prefer #1 or #4 buckshot if I had to use a shotgun. It sounds like everyone thinks a slug is an armor piercing round. No, a foster style slug is essentially a .75" lead thimble. When it does hit flesh, it will likely break apart and penetrate less than 00 buck. Foster style slugs have their place, but they aren't a good choice for close quarters combat.

    My AR is my go-to home defense long gun. I haven't decided for sure which load stays in the gun, but the rounds I consider acceptable for defense are some 55gr Federal bonded SPs, 55gr V-max hand loads, 55gr Hornady SP hand loads and 62gr Federal bonded SP hand loads.

    M193 FMJ ammo wouldn't be a terrible choice either, because of the amount of tumbling and fragmenting the bullet does once it hits something. When it tumbles as it should, it will penetrate less than many SP and HP loads will. FMJ in other calibers (.308, 7.62x39, etc...) is not a good choice. The bullets are much more stable and do not yaw or tumble as violently. They will over penetrate.

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    Member Array revldm's Avatar
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    I wonder about the wisdom of using a long gun for home defense. It would be hard to move around in the house with the long barrel.A hand gun would be easier to use IMO. I just bought a S&W mp15 but that is just in case I ever need a rifle for longer range. I also wonder about the .223 round? How effective is it against a human target? It seems like such a small bullet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodad View Post
    Birdshot in the 12 GA.

    . Believe me when I say birdshot will do the trick.
    Ya, in my short time on this site, I've already seen this posted and proven pretty false IMO several times. I've been out and shot some random things with birdshot, no way would I feel comfortable with that as a defensive round in my shotgun. To each their own though.
    The stupidity of some people NEVER ceases to amaze me.

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    Distinguished Member Array lchamp's Avatar
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    I only expect to use handguns for inside the house defense. If I'm defending my home using rifles, I don't think I'll be worrying about over penetration...that's more SHTF stuff.

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    OP, you didn't say what your outer walls are composed of. That will have a large influence on the penetration capability of any round. But if I have to defend myself in my house (CBS), I'm not going to be thinking about penetration beyond the assailant's body.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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