Better defensive ammo: .223 JHP or 5.56 NATO green tip? - Page 2

Better defensive ammo: .223 JHP or 5.56 NATO green tip?

This is a discussion on Better defensive ammo: .223 JHP or 5.56 NATO green tip? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Smitty901 So grab a pot of coffee a couple aspirin and read The AR15.com Ammo Oracle jeez, this is one of the ...

View Poll Results: Better defensive ammo

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  • .223 JHP

    27 60.00%
  • 5.56 NATO

    18 40.00%
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Thread: Better defensive ammo: .223 JHP or 5.56 NATO green tip?

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array AdBro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    So grab a pot of coffee a couple aspirin and read
    The AR15.com Ammo Oracle
    jeez, this is one of the best links i've ever seen! thanks.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    This is not, necessarily, true. 5.56/.223 rounds historically do not rely on expansion as their primary wounding agent. They rely on yaw (the rotation of the bullet into it's "natural" state of being - tail first) and fragmentation (the round "spinning itself apart" as it yaws through a dense medium, like flesh). If the round "properly" yaws and fragments, there is almost no chance of dangerous over-penetration. Additionally, a round that strikes something other than the target and is sufficiently destabilized loses energy very quickly, relative (or course) to its current energy and momentum. A heavy, stable JHP would therefore (at least theoretically) be more of a post-impact threat than would a lighter, "less stable" FMJ.

    These rounds do not operate like handgun rounds do, and the "conventional wisdom" of handgun rounds cannot be applied. Read the ammo oracle link, and the literature on the modern self-defense (Hornady TAP, et al) to see how these rounds actually operate.
    True--however most ball rounds don't tend to upset until after about 20cm (8") of penetration...one of the icepick issues that have been reported from overseas R&D.

    Compare to 77gr OTM round:
    Attachment 64898

    Switch to a lighter-jacketed varmint type round, and the results are devastating. I saw a deer this year that was taken with a 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip in the boiler room...small entrance wound, heart and lungs that looked like they'd been put through a blender, no exit wound. I dare say, it would not be too different on a biped.

    As for the twist rate...well, if we're talking about a home defense situation...it's not going to matter, unless you're trying to put something like a 40gr Varmint Grenade through your 1:7 barrel; use a proper weight, say 55gr or better, and it will do just fine.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdBro View Post
    jeez, this is one of the best links i've ever seen! thanks.
    Sad part is it is a lot of infro and correct but there is always a what if when it come to this stuff.
    All of my AR's are 5.56 1in 7 twist except one that is a 1 in 8 so I can shoot either 5.56 or .223 with no concern The zero is a bit different but real world up close it don't madder.
    I know what I need to change on my weapons if I switch ammo so I am not concerned.
    If you have time read the parts about the rounds and how they Fragment it should help explain why you really do not want Hollow point 223/5.56.
    When the reading gets to much step out back and burn a few mags. That is what I do, then I sleep well know It don't madder what I shoot the BG is going down.
    My oldest son is a Master Gunner, That means he is a darn good instructor at the use of all weapons they use, He is also a very good shot.
    And when some say you can't hit things at 600+ meters with an Off the self AR he is happy to allow you to buy dinner.
    He not only trains but he gets a lot of training and range time.
    Ask him about all this you going to be there awhile, but his short version is you need to spend more time learning to use you sights correctly.
    if you have that down it don't madder what your shooting . You have to hit the darn thing. He is not one to waste cash on fancy stuff that is not really needed for the most part His personal weapons are the same as mine when it comes to AR's. Colt and Huldra's 5.56 with 1 in 7 twist.
    He swears by iron sights as a back up , The Army m68 or Mars type Red dot for close reflex fire. But he will tell you nothing beats the ACOG scope if you really want to reach out and touch something. His personal Acog is about a 1300 dollar scope.
    Shoot what you got just hit what you shoot at that should stop them.

  4. #19
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    Smitty-

    I just got my first AR a month ago. So this information was extremely helpful (I read the whole thing). I have a Sig M400 and the chromed barrel is 1:7 so I was happy to read that it can handle shooting just about anything (other than light 40gr ammo that I don't care about). I have some M193 and M855s in my case but I have only had a chance to shoot at a range and wanted to burn cheaper stuff which has been basic 55gr .223.

    I think I'm going to go this weekend and see how the M193 and M855s shoot and see if it's far off what I have my iron sights zeroed to. With the .223 I have been getting 9inch groupings at 100 yards which I think is pretty darn good considering I can't even see where I'm hitting until I walk up to the target.

    I think I will keep the iron sights on for backup and buy a 3-9x scope for past what I can see in the iron sights.

    Judging from this article, am I right to assume that .223 defense relies on expansion whereas 5.56 relies on fragmentation and/or yaw? NATO has higher velocities than .223, right?

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    There are too many different bullet types between the two options listed, to make this poll effective.

    Judging from this article, am I right to assume that .223 defense relies on expansion whereas 5.56 relies on fragmentation and/or yaw? NATO has higher velocities than .223, right?
    It's not that simple. You have to consider the bullet design in order to compare terminal ballistics.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

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  6. #21
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    if you know you won't be shooting intruders wearing body armors, stick to JHP rounds..

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdBro View Post
    Smitty-

    I just got my first AR a month ago. So this information was extremely helpful (I read the whole thing). I have a Sig M400 and the chromed barrel is 1:7 so I was happy to read that it can handle shooting just about anything (other than light 40gr ammo that I don't care about). I have some M193 and M855s in my case but I have only had a chance to shoot at a range and wanted to burn cheaper stuff which has been basic 55gr .223.

    I think I'm going to go this weekend and see how the M193 and M855s shoot and see if it's far off what I have my iron sights zeroed to. With the .223 I have been getting 9inch groupings at 100 yards which I think is pretty darn good considering I can't even see where I'm hitting until I walk up to the target.

    I think I will keep the iron sights on for backup and buy a 3-9x scope for past what I can see in the iron sights.

    Judging from this article, am I right to assume that .223 defense relies on expansion whereas 5.56 relies on fragmentation and/or yaw? NATO has higher velocities than .223, right?

    Real world Either round will serve you well. Get out to the range Zero you weapon with both rounds then know the changes you need to make of either one. Do this a few times as you skills with it improve.
    If you using Iron sights know how they are used for the ranges you will use it. BIG problem with AR's many just do not do the home work on how to use it.
    In a nut shell and not nice but if you shoot BG from 0-400 meters with either round and Hit BG . BG will not be a threat.
    I agree with Zacii statement it is not that simple, I will add there comes a time you just have to shoot.
    Your conclusion from the reading would generally be correct.
    Life is tough when your looking for yes and no answers. Forget hollow points in a .223/5.56.
    The AR in a 16 inch, 5.56 1in7 is an outstanding/affordable all around weapon, you will stay very busy leaning all it can do for you.
    I stock up on M193 and M855 when I can if I get a good deal I take either. I stick to brass for normal use but will stock pile some steel case if it is low enough in cost for the end of the world as we know.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I go with JHP for the simple reason that the FMJ will not always yaw and fragment. We had this issue with "skinnies" in Somalia. The FMJ would zip through and not start to tumble until the bullet was already out of the body. I feel the terminal performance of the JHP is more consistent in this regard.

    ETA - The guys at Theboxotruth have done extensive testing regarding penetration of interior (sheetrock) walls. Handgun rounds, buck shot, and 5.56 will ALL penetrate at least four complete walls. Yes, the 5.56 fragmented, but the shrapnel still penetrated.

    Bottom line is that any projectile that will reach the vitals will penetrate multiple interior walls. Those walls are concealment, not cover. The usual safety rules apply, regardless of the ammo or platform you use.
    Last edited by 10thmtn; December 1st, 2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    10thmtn, maybe what we need is an AR- 12 gauge over under mount it like a 203. rifled slug can be good out to 100-120 yards.
    And we all know the Army has some interesting triple O buck rounds been know to reach out a 100 yards.
    We call it the AR15/12

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    10thmtn, maybe what we need is an AR- 12 gauge over under mount it like a 203. rifled slug can be good out to 100-120 yards.
    And we all know the Army has some interesting triple O buck rounds been know to reach out a 100 yards.
    We call it the AR15/12
    Ha! There are such shotguns for military/LE use. And I also seem to recall 40mm buck or flechette rounds...cannot remember.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Ha! There are such shotguns for military/LE use. And I also seem to recall 40mm buck or flechette rounds...cannot remember.
    They have some real neat stuff for the 203. But it could be a bit over kill

  12. #27
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    Have you considered soft point bullets? I have hand loaded 55gr Hornady soft points as well as 64gr Federal bonded soft points. They are going to give very reliable expansion, but allow greater penetration than a fragmenting ballistic tipped bullet.

  13. #28
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    We had Rem 870s mounted under CAR-15 bbls in the 75th as far back as 1991. Nothing new there. Of course, the shotgun bbls were VERY short, and the shotgun was used almost exclusively as a door breaching tool. Here is a more modern version: woah2kg.jpg
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    We had Rem 870s mounted under CAR-15 bbls in the 75th as far back as 1991. Nothing new there. Of course, the shotgun bbls were VERY short, and the shotgun was used almost exclusively as a door breaching tool. Here is a more modern version: woah2kg.jpg
    oh my daymn

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    10thmtn, maybe what we need is an AR- 12 gauge over under mount it like a 203. rifled slug can be good out to 100-120 yards.
    And we all know the Army has some interesting triple O buck rounds been know to reach out a 100 yards.
    We call it the AR15/12
    You mean like the Crossfire MK1? Crossfire MK-1 Combination 5.56mm X 12 ga pump : Pump Action Rifles at GunBroker.com

    pix157152480.jpg
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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