45 auto penetration

This is a discussion on 45 auto penetration within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After reading about the guy who got convicted because the jury didn't like his use of hollowpoints I got to thinking about going back to ...

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Thread: 45 auto penetration

  1. #1
    Member Array Skysoldier's Avatar
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    Question 45 auto penetration

    After reading about the guy who got convicted because the jury didn't like his use of hollowpoints I got to thinking about going back to ball ammo in my Sig 220 and S&W 1911pd, but according to Mas Ayoob they over penetrate. But yet Chuck Taylor and Jeff Cooper don't seem to think so. Is there any data anywhere in referance to hollowpoints vs ball ammo for self defense and over penetration

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  3. #2
    Member Array General Geoff's Avatar
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    .45ACP in FMJ may or may not overpenetrate a BG, but with a bullet that broad, even if it does overpenetrate a body, it probably won't have much energy left after it exits.

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    One source indicates the penetration of the 230 Gr. FMJ as 26" in ballistic gelatin. (1)

    Modern JHP's will penetrate 12-14" in gelatin. (2)

    I think the JHP verdict is a rarity, and I would not steer away from modern, more effective loadings solely on that account.

    Matt

    1 - http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm
    2 - http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...&client=safari
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    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    HP are made to stop in the target, leave the FMJs for the range.
    I would rather the jury not like hollowpoints than the jury not liking the grandmother that got hit by a pass thru FMJ. Remeber the chest is 90% open space ballist gelatin is not, it simulates muscle. FMJ is in and out lickity split.

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    I would suggest mirroring what the local PD uses , if you are that worried about using HP's. Also , other factors ,circumstances seemed to affect that trial.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    I think this would serve you better in the event you have to present your case in front of a jury; first ilustration is JHP (penetration = 10 inches), second ilustration is FMJ (penetration is in excess of 25 inches):





    Read Ammunition Selection Criteria, P. 11; link:

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Some may argue this in court, yes. According to Ayoob, the counter argument is: increased stopping power can shorten the engagement, thereby reducing the threat to everyone concerned; increased mushrooming and energy dump of JHP tends to require fewer rounds be fired to stop the BG; reduced penetration due to clogging/mushrooming is less risk to bystanders; and, if it moves you, even the BG is more likely to recover in ER with fewer large holes than many entry/exit wounds beyond the internal damage.

    In short: more-reliable stops, less risky, less deadly to BG (despite quicker stops).
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    Member Array Skysoldier's Avatar
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    Yea, you guys are right I guess I had a brain f**t I,ll just stick with my 185gr Silvertips and take my chances. I am lucky in one aspect my lawyer is a shooter and knows his stuff

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    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    I would tend to believe that the people on the jury know little or nothing about ammo so unless the prosicution brings it up I don't thing it would be an issue. Have you tried shooting the silver tips in low light I have found them to have a tremendous muzzle flash.

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    I kinda wonder if the guy's lawyer was up to speed. The type of ammo shouldn't be an issue when threat to human life is imminent and deadly force is used to stop the deadly threat.

    Then again... jury of your peers?
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    cj
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    Senior Member Array cj's Avatar
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    Thanks, Skysoldier. After reading that account, I was pondering the same thing (have to say, if I WAS going JHP, it would be in .45).

    For those who haven't seen the article, the prosecution made a big deal portraying the hollow points used in a shooting as being particularly viscious and designed to kill. In interviews with the jury, it had obviously made a large impression on them. All I can think is that the defense didn't do their job in countering the arguments about them. The ammunition used should NOT have been an issue in the case, but it was obvious that the jury was heavily swayed.

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skysoldier View Post
    After reading about the guy who got convicted because the jury didn't like his use of hollowpoints I got to thinking about going back to ball ammo in my Sig 220 and S&W 1911pd, but according to Mas Ayoob they over penetrate.
    When I read this story I wondered why, when the prosecutiom deomonized hollow points, the defense failed to mention the lower likelyhood of over penetration which could harm bystanders. This, if percieved true by a jury, would tend to be a mitigating factor IMO, whethet true or not.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Member Array msb45's Avatar
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    I also don't understand

    why the lawyer didn't ask the arresting officer for his spare mag and show how that arresting officer was armed with evil "murdering" hollow points.

    Let the prosecutor handle that

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    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    The case wasn't about hollowpoint ammunition. That was just one of many factors that went into the decision, but the use of hollowpoint ammo wasn't the determining or even a critical factor any more than than the behavioral evaluations of both of the players were. The jurors stated that they believed that Fish overreacted to the threat, shooting the other gun after he had stopped advancing.

    About as critical as the hollowpoints in that nothing was proven or refuted, they also were troubled by the missing time between when the shooting occurred and when help was summoned. Why the delay? Why prop up the guy's head with a pack, but not actually administer to the wounds with the knowlege of first aid Fish possessed as a scout master. Simply put, Fish's story of the shooting itself didn't add up and was not supported evidence from other sources. In short, the jury believed he shot inappropriately, hence the conviction.

    As for the issue of overpenetration in the case, there were no bystanders to worry about striking.

    My point is that some of y'all seem more concerned with what the jury might do to you based on a biased interrpetation of a case where hollowpoints were discussed, missing the critical point that the jury felt Fish shot when the other guy not longer posed a threat. And so some of y'all are now worried about the horrors of using hollowpoints over ball ammo. But think for a minute. Do you want to use the ammo that is best constructed to perform optimally and hence you are more likely to survive the fight, or are you going to cave in to some strange fear and go with ammo not as likely to do a good job simply because you are afraid of the possible jury aftermath?

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Why we're talking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
    My point is that some of y'all seem more concerned with what the jury might do to you based on a biased interrpetation of a case where hollowpoints were discussed, missing the critical point that the jury felt Fish shot when the other guy not longer posed a threat.
    I am in agreement with all of the points in your post, but to clarify:

    I believe that the discussion of the ammo has risen to the forefront because of the other article where one of the jurors was interviewed after the trial and said something to the effect of [the reason she felt he was guilty of murder was because he used hollowpoints.]

    This particlular juror seemed to be more concerned with the type of bulet used than any of the other factors. She directly referred to the type of bullet to justify the conviction in her mind in her statement to the press.

    Respectfully,

    RD
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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