A brief graphical analysis of the 9mm 115 gr. FMJRN and the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN

This is a discussion on A brief graphical analysis of the 9mm 115 gr. FMJRN and the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It seems that one of the perennial topics on internet gun forums is the comparison of the 9mm and .45ACP using ball ammunition. Using the ...

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Thread: A brief graphical analysis of the 9mm 115 gr. FMJRN and the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN

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    Senior Member Array 481's Avatar
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    A brief graphical analysis of the 9mm 115 gr. FMJRN and the .45ACP 230 gr. FMJRN

    It seems that one of the perennial topics on internet gun forums is the comparison of the 9mm and .45ACP using ball ammunition.

    Using the Schwartz terminal ballistic model to analyze the maximum penetration depths and the corresponding mass within the permanent wound cavities of the 9mm 115 gr FMJRN and the .45ACP 230 gr FMJRN across a wide range of velocities (200 fps - 1600 fps), I thought that graphs might be a visually-informative way to illustrate the data for those who might be interested in it.

    Since a bullet that lacks the velocity necessary to penetrate skin will fail to penetrate a human body, it was necessary to determine the lower velocity limit to be used in the analysis.

    For this task, I used the skin penetration model found in the research paper below-

    http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf

    -to determine the minimum velocity at which both the 9mm and .45ACP FMJRNs would successfully penetrate human skin of average thickness (~3mm). Those values are 194.5 fps for the 9mm 115 gr FMJRN and 179.4 fps for the .45ACP FMJRN.

    Since either round must have a minimum velocity of less than 200 fps to pass successfully through human skin, 200 fps was used for both rounds as the lower limit for the analysis.



    This graph illustrates the maximum penetration depths (in inches) of the 9mm 115 gr FMJRN and the .45ACP FMJRN at impact velocities of 200 fps to 1600 fps-





    This graph illustrates the mass (in grams) of permanently crushed soft tissue within the entire volume of the permanent cavity of the 9mm 115 gr FMJRN and the .45ACP FMJRN at impact velocities of 200 fps to 1600 fps-




    Using a manufacturer's ballistic table to determine the velocity of the FMJRN at a desired range, the maximum terminal penetration and the amount of permanently crushed soft-tissue within the permanent cavity can be found using the charts above.

    One of the most startling implications of this analysis (at least to me) is the amount of penetration that both rounds would produce even at extended ranges where velocities are well below 400 fps.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Let me show you my chart:

    9mm on deer

    Dead

    45 acp on deer;

    Dead
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Yeah, but the .45 spun that deer 180 degrees!
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Distinguished Member Array Nmuskier's Avatar
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    Conclusion: big slow pistol bullets do more damage than small fast bullets. Got it.

    Hey Glockman- I've wanted an opportunity to test pistol cartridges on some doe fawns. What ammo did you use? What range? Which pic is an entrance wound/exit wound. As a biologist, I am aware of the difference between human vs. deer anatomy, but I think it is still a valuable model (until we can get the BG's to hold still ;) ).

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    Senior Member Array 481's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Let me show you my chart...
    Nice shootin' glockman10mm!
    My favorite "gun" book-

    QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

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    Member Array Maximpactguns's Avatar
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    did you take that first one with the g19? and how many shots did you hit it with? Thats awesome!!! And really good shooting! :) What brands of 9mm and 45's are you using?

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    I'd say glockman's results are "off the charts"!
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    Smitty
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    9mm if I remember was 147 grn Golden Saber. 45 was actually a fmj. Both well inside 20 yards, and both broadside shots. Neither went out of sight before hitting the ground.
    The exit wound on the 45 fmj did more damage than you would think. Picture is of broken shoulder exit wound.


    Mrs G cheats. She uses a 44 with my handloads.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Holy cats - that .45 must have taken a chunk of bone out with it to leave an exit wound like that!

    So do you dress yourself up like a pile of crabapples to get 'em inside 20 yards? http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...l_1/smile2.gif
    Smitty
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    Conclusion: big slow pistol bullets do more damage than small fast bullets. Got it.

    Hey Glockman- I've wanted an opportunity to test pistol cartridges on some doe fawns. What ammo did you use? What range? Which pic is an entrance wound/exit wound. As a biologist, I am aware of the difference between human vs. deer anatomy, but I think it is still a valuable model (until we can get the BG's to hold still ;) ).
    When I hunt deer, I dont do it for the experiment as the entire reason. I actually eat these, so, I may use a handgun commonly used for SD, and do this as a matter of testing, however, I only take high percentage shots that allow me to be precise in my shot selection. If the shot oppurtunity doesnt happen exactly as I want it to, the animals walk.
    I do not, as far as recovery of the animal goes, that any shot with a popular SD caliber from 9mm,40, or even 45acp would be a good idea beyond 20-25 yards.

    I also think that the body cavity diameter, and biological make up of the whitetail deer, is the very best test media for bullet and caliber performance, much better than gellatin test media.

    I would also like to go on record to say that I do not think it is humane or morally right to shoot the animals just to test ammunition.
    darbo, Ljutic and carracer like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Holy cats - that .45 must have taken a chunk of bone out with it to leave an exit wound like that!

    So do you dress yourself up like a pile of crabapples to get 'em inside 20 yards? http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...l_1/smile2.gif
    Lol, I do alot of homework Smitty. Starting in September, I scout, and bowhunt, and by the time firearms season comes around, I have fine tuned the deers travel routes and feeding habits. I use a portable tree stand that I use to place myself at least 18 feet up in a tree.
    If I do my part, they walk close by and donrt even know I am there.
    carracer and gasmitty like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    A piebald buck with a handgun! How cool!
    At one with the gun.

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    the .45 spun that deer 180 degrees!
    Or 540 degrees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    When I hunt deer, I dont do it for the experiment as the entire reason. I actually eat these, so, I may use a handgun commonly used for SD, and do this as a matter of testing, however, I only take high percentage shots that allow me to be precise in my shot selection. If the shot oppurtunity doesnt happen exactly as I want it to, the animals walk.
    I do not, as far as recovery of the animal goes, that any shot with a popular SD caliber from 9mm,40, or even 45acp would be a good idea beyond 20-25 yards.

    I also think that the body cavity diameter, and biological make up of the whitetail deer, is the very best test media for bullet and caliber performance, much better than gellatin test media.

    I would also like to go on record to say that I do not think it is humane or morally right to shoot the animals just to test ammunition.
    Regardless of what you may see on my blog, I put my full faith and trust only in 12 gauge 3" magnum loads of 00 buck and rifled slugs for exactly the same reason. These two are the only rounds that I have visually verified as repeatedly capable of 1 shot drops on 150+ lb. game out to about 30 yards. Your testing resonates with my own real world experiences and I thank you for posting it.
    Author of the Pocket Guns and Gear blog. Stop by for a peek at http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com

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    Cool! Eatable ballistics charts!
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