logic of FMJ and JHP

logic of FMJ and JHP

This is a discussion on logic of FMJ and JHP within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, so this has got me confused. JHP are banned for use in the military becuase it has been thought that if a person is ...

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Thread: logic of FMJ and JHP

  1. #1
    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    Question logic of FMJ and JHP

    Ok, so this has got me confused. JHP are banned for use in the military becuase it has been thought that if a person is shot by the JHP then other soldiers would have to come to aid. In other words you take out 2-3 soldiers for every one that is actually shot. The logic is to use FMJ so that the bullet "will kill better". How does it makes sense that the JHP which causes more damage would be less likely to kill/ more likely to injure? Where is the logic that FMJ will kill an enemy quicker/ easier?

    Another thought to consider: Bullets coming from high powered rifles fragment upon impact thus turning into many damaging objects. What would be the difference between JHP and FMJ if they both fragment upon impact? (shooting from rifle velocities)

    I am just confused where the logic is coming from...ignorant polititions or what?


  2. #2
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    No logic ,but much specualtion on this topic. Why it originall y was done, who knows. HP's cause more damage and kill more faster(more humanely) than FMJ.
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  3. #3
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    IIRC it is other way around - the ''highly lethal'' JHP's are Hague Convention outlawed, whereas FMJ's are (were) regarded as more ''surviveable'' and thus also causing the ''wounded soldier'' care burden.

    In fact with a round like 5.56 x 45, we know FMJ's can and do fragment so - that round hardly needs to be soft or hollow point - plus their tumbling tendency too.

    A .308 or even old .303 FMJ could do a pass thru without any frag'; if I remember.

    I'd guess, judging from hunting results - a 165 boat tail SP or HP - would alsmost for sure produce way more frag' and mushrooming - and potentially be even more devastating. Probably in mil theater - a more guaranteed kill - IMO.
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that the treaty prohibiting "the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body" is the Hague Conventions of 1899, so it far predates the development of modern hollowpoints and easily fragmenting rifle bullets like the 5.56mm round (Wikipedia entry, text of the conventions). When it was drafted I'm guessing the concern was mainly with soft-point rifle bullets, rather than anything like the modern JHP we have today .

    The Hague Convention isn't the only reason the military uses FMJ rounds, particularly in rifles. Unlike personal defense scenarios, the military tends to shoot smallarms at a lot of other things besides exposed personnel (vehicles, enemy soldiers behind cover or wearing body armor, etc.). This makes penetration a higher priority than it is with civilians/police forces. Witness the US military's 30 year quest for a 5.56mm bullet with adequate penetration.

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    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Things I've heard:

    Hague Convention, as stated above. "Unnecessary human suffering."

    When fired into a mass of soldiers the overpenetration can take out more than one.

    The other soldier is only fighting for HIS country and therefore should be given more of a chance. I tend to think chivalry in this sense is very limited however.

    Probably the most defining aspects however are cost, ease of manufacture in huge quantities, and feed reliability.

    We do keep hollowpoint in stock however. Old style 147gr for the 9mm IIRC, probably for suppressed SF firearms and military police (I'm guessing). I've been unable to document this using the web, and I'd rather not mention who I got the info from as he values his privacy.

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  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    The Hague convention was referring to soft lead rounds that caused horrific wounds, as opposed to the FMJ that were just coming into common use by armies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    The Hague convention was referring to soft lead rounds that caused horrific wounds, as opposed to the FMJ that were just coming into common use by armies.
    I would think horrific wounds and survivability are the issue.
    Dum dum's and dipping ammo in 'Merde" are also outlawed.
    Oh, moderators please excuse my french.

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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Wooden bullets were also outlawed. Met a vet who took a Luger off an SS officer near the end of WWII. The guy was terrified of being charged as a war criminal for possesing them. He had never even removed the bullets from the clip, imagine the provenance of that for a collector!
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    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Just a thought

    Shooting at that enemy soldier, those behind him are probably more enemy soldiers. Overpenetration is a good thing in that case. Shooting at a BG, probably there's a bus full of Hemophiliac orpahans behind him. Got to take every precaution to have that bullet stop in the BG.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array A1C Lickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith View Post
    We do keep hollowpoint in stock however. Old style 147gr for the 9mm IIRC, probably for suppressed SF firearms and military police (I'm guessing). I've been unable to document this using the web, and I'd rather not mention who I got the info from as he values his privacy.

    Josh <><
    MP's and Security Forces are authorized hollow points when performing police duties. So how this works out is, when they're on gate guard or flightline security positions thy carry FMJ rounds. When they're doing roaming patrols (on base) or shift supervisor roles they carry hollow points.
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  11. #11
    Member Array DonGlock26's Avatar
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    The first FMJ rifle ammunition was found to lack the stopping power of the .45 caliber British rifles using lead bullets, so the British Army in Dum Dum, India developed soft nose jacketed bullets that did as well as the older lead bullets. These "Dum Dum" bullets were later banned.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    New theory

    I thought the entire thought process on JHP nowadays is to have a round that expends all its energy in its target, thus preventing overpenetration. However I do hear some negative things about JHP from court cases and I am thinking about changing to the Expanding FMJ that Federal makes.

  13. #13
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
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    I thought the whole 'dum dum' thing was a joke until I read some article by a German university professor written during WWI in which he condemns the Brits for using said rounds...

  14. #14
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    When I was in the Marine Corps I never saw a JHP, we were always issued FMJ. I was a MP from 88-92.

    The view of the instructors was it did not matter if you made a kill or wounded the enemy, either way he was out of the battle.

    I saw a program on the History Channel the other night that showed the path that a 5.56mm round would take in a body, starts to tumble at impact then veer off in one direction or the other.

    As for me, I don't care to be shot with a pellet, plastic BB, or spit wad.
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  15. #15
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
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    I have a buddy in security forces that guarded an embassy, they were issued JHP. I was always issued FMJ in the grunts, so yeah I guess it depends on your "post".

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