Why does clothing clogging a HP keep it from expanding?

This is a discussion on Why does clothing clogging a HP keep it from expanding? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Wouldn't it just expand from the pressure of hitting the clothing?...

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Thread: Why does clothing clogging a HP keep it from expanding?

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array AdBro's Avatar
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    Why does clothing clogging a HP keep it from expanding?

    Wouldn't it just expand from the pressure of hitting the clothing?

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    As a kid, have you ever stuck your head out the window of a car while traveling at a high speed on the highway? Notice how your mouth fills up with air (cheeks/lips bulging outward due to the force of the air)? While I don't know for certain, I'm betting the physics are much the same as trying the same thing with your mouth stuffed with something (ie, a cloth bandanna, or whatever). The air would just then flow around the mouth opening. At higher force/pressures of a speeding bullet, the physics might well be different, but I'd assume it's similar to this mouth/air type of effect.
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    Yea, but putting an bandanna in your mouth would be placed in there without force. Clothing going in a hollow point goes in at the same force as anything else the bullet is hitting. If a balled-up bandana was shot in your mouth at the same speed the air fills your mouth, your cheeks would expand from it.

    Certainly if you PLACE clothing in the HP before shooting I can see why it wouldn't let it expand, but that's not the case. The polymer tip that Hornady often puts in their HPs helps expansion too but I don't know how.

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    Senior Member Array sioux565's Avatar
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    Is this the reason Hornady has the red plugs in their CD ammo?

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    It was a slow day and some came up with this idea if you shot some one wearing 15 pairs of jeans 3 leather jackets and a vest it might not stop him

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    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    lol at the analogies

    What makes a hollowpoint expand is the fluid pressure of a 90% water target acting against the hollow cavity. There is much more fluid pressure and force transmitted over the interior surface of the projectile when it's not clogged - when it's clogged, there may be dry spots beneath the clothing, or the clothing may be mounded up causing the fluid pressure to be directed around the hollow cavity. Lots of other possibilities too. If the lead was softer, it would expand more easily when clogged - but it would expand too quickly when not clogged. Also you run into penetration issues because softer lead will be more likely to fragment/break off.

    The polymer tipped stuff doesn't "help" with expansion - but it does somewhat avoid the clogging issue, since it's already clogged to begin with. The idea is having the hollow cavity already clogged on purpose, with a material that transmits force pretty well. I would guess they use a softer lead on those rounds - just a guess.

    Bottom line - it takes pressure to make a bullet expand, and nothing transmits pressure as smoothly and thoroughly as liquid.

    Austin
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    Quote Originally Posted by aus71383 View Post
    lol at the analogies

    What makes a hollowpoint expand is the fluid pressure of a 90% water target acting against the hollow cavity. There is much more fluid pressure and force transmitted over the interior surface of the projectile when it's not clogged - when it's clogged, there may be dry spots beneath the clothing, or the clothing may be mounded up causing the fluid pressure to be directed around the hollow cavity. Lots of other possibilities too. If the lead was softer, it would expand more easily when clogged - but it would expand too quickly when not clogged. Also you run into penetration issues because softer lead will be more likely to fragment/break off.

    The polymer tipped stuff doesn't "help" with expansion - but it does somewhat avoid the clogging issue, since it's already clogged to begin with. The idea is having the hollow cavity already clogged on purpose, with a material that transmits force pretty well. I would guess they use a softer lead on those rounds - just a guess.

    Bottom line - it takes pressure to make a bullet expand, and nothing transmits pressure as smoothly and thoroughly as liquid.

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aus71383 View Post
    lol at the analogies

    What makes a hollowpoint expand is the fluid pressure of a 90% water target acting against the hollow cavity. There is much more fluid pressure and force transmitted over the interior surface of the projectile when it's not clogged - when it's clogged, there may be dry spots beneath the clothing, or the clothing may be mounded up causing the fluid pressure to be directed around the hollow cavity. Lots of other possibilities too. If the lead was softer, it would expand more easily when clogged - but it would expand too quickly when not clogged. Also you run into penetration issues because softer lead will be more likely to fragment/break off.

    The polymer tipped stuff doesn't "help" with expansion - but it does somewhat avoid the clogging issue, since it's already clogged to begin with. The idea is having the hollow cavity already clogged on purpose, with a material that transmits force pretty well. I would guess they use a softer lead on those rounds - just a guess.

    Bottom line - it takes pressure to make a bullet expand, and nothing transmits pressure as smoothly and thoroughly as liquid.

    Austin
    Beat me to it. Air and liquids behave fairly similarly as far as pressure is concerned. A JHP would expand if enough air pressure were forced down the cavity. It's fluid pressure that's the trick.

    The polymer tip prevents clothing from clogging the cavity and aids in expansion because while the materiel is technically a solid, it's elastic enough that it exerts some amount of hydraulic pressure against the inside of the cavity. If the round makes it into the body that will start expansion, then it will fall away and let the body's fluids and tissues exert more effective hydraulic pressure. If it encounters clothing it keeps the clothing from clogging the cavity.

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    Distinguished Member Array Arborigine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    As a kid, have you ever stuck your head out the window of a car while traveling at a high speed on the highway? Notice how your mouth fills up with air (cheeks/lips bulging outward due to the force of the air)? While I don't know for certain, I'm betting the physics are much the same as trying the same thing with your mouth stuffed with something (ie, a cloth bandanna, or whatever). The air would just then flow around the mouth opening. At higher force/pressures of a speeding bullet, the physics might well be different, but I'd assume it's similar to this mouth/air type of effect.
    I don't disagree with the above posters, but your analogy needs some work. something like travelling at high speed with your rag-stuffed mouth out the window striking a telephone pole.
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    well, i know when i'm hungry my mouth can do as much damage as a HP on a bucket of wings
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