JHP and FMJ 9mm through 45mm? Do we know what we think we know?

This is a discussion on JHP and FMJ 9mm through 45mm? Do we know what we think we know? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've never fooled myself. I have known for years what works and doesn't, despite the BS that changes gear every few years. There is a ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I've never fooled myself. I have known for years what works and doesn't, despite the BS that changes gear every few years.

    There is a reason they try to make small bullets act like big bullets.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I've never fooled myself. I have known for years what works and doesn't, despite the BS that changes gear every few years.

    There is a reason they try to make small bullets act like big bullets.
    Exactly!
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  4. #18
    Member Array nathanjns's Avatar
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    Placement and penetration!!!! Doing anything that negatively impacts either is a risky proposition. Other than that, there are only two things that seem to be for sure:


    1. Use what you shoot best with.
    2. Large handgun calibers usually work better than do smaller ones.
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  5. #19
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    Well based on what I found at the moment ive done this. Right now I own a Smith and Wesson sw40ve and have for as long as I need it a Taurus pt840 borrowed from my son.
    The Smith and Wesson sw40ve I only bought a few days ago and though ive run quite a bit of target ammo the flat nosed fmj thru it I havent had a chance to run much Hp thru it. Probably about 50 rounds of hp vs couple of hundred fmj. So I know the SW40ve i have is reliable with fmj and so far with hp but really not enough hp thru it to satisfy me.

    The Taurus 840 I owned before him bought new and ran a ton of Hp and fmj thru it so I know for sure its reliable with the brands of Hp I can get here.

    So for the moment Im loading the Taurus with Hp since a soft tissue strike it will expand and if it hits bone and doesnt its still for the most part acting as flat nosed 40 fmj. That pistol stays with my wife which she keeps on her anytime im gone from the house.

    The Smith I just bought Ive loaded with all flat nosed FMJ. I know for sure it will go bang everytime on those. Again not saying it wont with Hp but i just havent had it long enough to run sufficient Hp thru it of my normal brands to convince me yet though its gave no indication so far that it wont.

    My solution right now. Ammo supplies get back to normal and I get more stocked up than i am things probably will change in some way. Still need to purchase another handgun first though
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    Placement and penetration. To be certain, these are what eventually bring a gunfight to an end. As it was postulated earlier, the smaller calibers must rely on penetration to accomplish their assigned task. This is why I don't trust slower bullets (.32 and .380) to anything but hard cast (with a shoulder) or FMJ. I prefer the hard cast bullet with a sharp shoulder that's exceeding 1000 fps. This will cut a nice hole and induce hemorrhaging. If two holes are cut (entrance and exit wounds) the subject will be inclined to a sharp drop in blood pressure, enhancing the probability of quicker incapacitation.

    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post
    I think this is oversimplifying the issue.

    Ballistic gel is meant to simulate the average density and composition of the human body. This includes the skeletal system, so shooting through a bone simulant plate into 10 percent gel is actually harder on the bullet than shooting into an actual body, though I couldn't tell you by how much.

    Second, I don't see what you're gaining by using FMJ ammo for self defense carry. You say that because many JHP loads fail to expand when going through bone, you're not sure why they're superior to FMJ loads. Well, the answer to that question would be that an FMJ load will never expand, whereas a JHP will probably expand going through soft tissue and might expand going through bone. A bone simulant plate is a poor simulation for most of the bones in the human body because it is flat and of uniform thickness. Most bones in the human body are not perfectly flat or uniformly thick. Rounded bone structures will often deflect bullets, but I would expect to see some expansion (at least more than an FMJ) in a JHP that changes course after a glancing hit to a rib.

    FMJ pistol rounds are inferior for self-defense compared to JHP for their total inability to expand and also for the fact that the round-nose FMJ profile tends to produce self-sealing wounds similar to an ice pick. That is, it produces a very long, but very thin piercing injury that does relatively little permanent tissue damage. This is also part of the reason why they tend to overpenetrate.

    Now, that is not saying that FMJ is totally ineffective for self-defense, since plenty of people are shot and killed with them. But a better choice if you didn't want JHP ammo would be to use a bullet with a sharp-edged profile, such as a semi or full wadcutter. These rounds tend to cut tissue, not simply push it aside.
    Great post, Sam.
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  8. #22
    Member Array Exsimguy1's Avatar
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    I have carried SWC including lead, jacketed, and more recently plated, in more than one .45acp, with absolute function. I have not felt as if I needed a "better" bullet. They hit where you shoot, and cut clean holes. Expansion in a .45 was never a real concern, until maybe 10-15 years ago. Other than with a few bullets, or severe pressure loads, it wasn't reliably acheivable either. Maybe all those years of being a pretty reliable "stopper" say's it may not be required.

    I also like flat point 225,230, or even 250 gr. Lead, jacketed or plated bullets in the .45acp, and do not feel "at a loss" carrying them either. Big and slow(er than more modern) still gets the job done.

    Terry

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    I haven't had the misfortune to have to shoot anybody, much less shoot two folks, with one getting hollows and the other getting hardball. So I guess I can render no opinion.

    But my 1911 and my SIG 220 get stuffed with 230 grain HST when they get carried.

    All I can ask of a hollow point 45 is that it feeds. If it expands, so much the better. If not, well, the target still gets a darn near 1/2 inch hole.
    glockman10mm and smolck like this.

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    If all else fails shoot until the threat is eliminated.

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    I keep seeing "hits bone first". I dunno about you, but most people's bones are INSIDE their body not outside.

    If I shoot a hollow point and it expands, great. If I shoot a hollow point and it doesn't, it acts as an FMJ anyways. But an FMJ bullet will NEVER have a chance to expand.

    If you are really worried about it, check out Guard Dog's expanding FMJ line.
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I keep seeing "hits bone first". I dunno about you, but most people's bones are INSIDE their body not outside.

    If I shoot a hollow point and it expands, great. If I shoot a hollow point and it doesn't, it acts as an FMJ anyways. But an FMJ bullet will NEVER have a chance to expand.



    If you are really worried about it, check out Guard Dog's expanding FMJ line.

    As opposed to not hitting bone before it goes deep enough to expand and do what a HP is supposed to do.
    Not worried about it. Just been stuck in the house more than usual and happened to see it mentioned them pursued the available research about it and thought I would share it here for those who were not aware of it.

    That keeping my bones on the outside of my body might be a good idea at my age though. Save all that messy cutting and sewing and surgery type stuff when I break my hip or something
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    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    JHP and FMJ 9mm through 45mm? Do we know what we think we know?

    If you are bored and want to "bone" up on the topic, cruise over to the Terminal Ballistics sub-forum of m4carbine.net, and read the stickies by DocGKR (Dr. Roberts). If still bored, read his posts in that forum.

    -john

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bzdog View Post
    If you are bored and want to "bone" up on the topic, cruise over to the Terminal Ballistics sub-forum of m4carbine.net, and read the stickies by DocGKR (Dr. Roberts). If still bored, read his posts in that forum.

    -john
    Will do. Thanks.
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    JHP and FMJ 9mm through 45mm? Do we know what we think we know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exsimguy1 View Post
    I have carried SWC including lead, jacketed, and more recently plated, in more than one .45acp, with absolute function. I have not felt as if I needed a "better" bullet. They hit where you shoot, and cut clean holes. Expansion in a .45 was never a real concern, until maybe 10-15 years ago. Other than with a few bullets, or severe pressure loads, it wasn't reliably acheivable either. Maybe all those years of being a pretty reliable "stopper" say's it may not be required.

    I also like flat point 225,230, or even 250 gr. Lead, jacketed or plated bullets in the .45acp, and do not feel "at a loss" carrying them either. Big and slow(er than more modern) still gets the job done.

    Terry
    If this argument had any validity, why wouldn't LEO throughout the nation shoot SWC? You may not feel at a loss, but my guess is that you've never shot someone in a defensive scenario.

    Clean-cut holes in paper is one thing, but it does not mean that the same round is best for use defensively.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R040607 View Post
    If this argument had any validity, why wouldn't LEO throughout the nation shoot SWC? You may not feel at a loss, but my guess is that you've never shot someone in a defensive scenario.

    Clean-cut holes in paper is one thing, but it does not mean that the same round is best for use defensively.
    My guess is you haven't had much experience shooting live flesh with a variety of rounds.

    And LE don't use swc because first, they don't function well in autoloaders, and two, they have a completely different need specific to criteria determined by public safety.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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