November 5th, 2006 07:08 PM
Sectional Density and defensive ammo
Sectional density is a common discussion among hunters. Does it not apply to defensive ammunition? This is my first post (question) so please don't slam my attempts at finding answers to serious questions (at least to me).
I am looking at a 230 grain 45 ACP, Federal Hydra Shock that is flat and perfectly mushroomed with the post sticking up proudly, and a 357 Mag 158 grain soft point that did not disrupt in the least after being fired into (through) 5-1 gallon jugs of water. Admittedly not a scientific test but simple to do and relative to each successive identical test.
Just what would be the ultimate requirement for a busy casino gaming floor...penetration or expansion? I will not allow over-penetration, but a round that cannot make it to the vitals is just as bad for my officers.
Someone has to have a line of logic that I have not considered. Help?
November 5th, 2006 07:15 PM
At the Range your going to use it no Sectional density wont apply
You would want both penetration and expansion something like the hydrashock or the Golden saber are designed to do both but not overpenetrate most times ..
As for shooting though water for me it doesn't mean a thing
There is a website im sure someone will post that is a link to some of the tests for self defense ammo
I lost all my links when hard drive failed so i don't have it
November 5th, 2006 07:20 PM
Thanks Bud for the quick reply. I have heard alot of stories of my favorite 45 ACP ammo. Some of the guy's carry 40's and a couple 9mm. Just trying to put my mind at ease with my HP only rule.
November 5th, 2006 07:24 PM
Almost Any Hp will serve you well Ball works but ya run into overpentration and then the dangers that go with it
In extreme winter were everyone is wearing about 3 coats i will carry ball as back up here but nothing but in the coldest weather
You could also look for Corbon Powerball that is good ammo also
November 5th, 2006 07:26 PM
Here's a link to a defense ammo tester:
Pretty popular site to peruse. Lots of food for thought there.
November 5th, 2006 07:29 PM
Thanks Tab...I'm going to take a look right now.
November 5th, 2006 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Bud White
November 5th, 2006 07:35 PM
no there's another one but box o truth is good read
November 5th, 2006 08:25 PM
Sectional density [ SD ] of various pistol rounds. SD is directly linked to penetration and figures prominently in all bullets performance.
Bullet Weight/ Cartridge/ Sectional Density
158gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .177
150gr .357 Sig .170
147gr 9mm Luger .167
145gr .357 Magnum .163
230gr .45 ACP .162
180gr .40 S&W .161
135gr 9mm Luger/.357 Sig .153
165gr .40 S&W .148
130gr .38 Special .147
127gr 9mm Luger .144
124gr 9mm Luger .141
200gr .45 ACP .140
125gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .140
155gr .40 S&W .138
185gr .45 ACP .130
115gr 9mm Luger/.357 Sig .130
110gr .38 Special/.357 Magnum .123
135gr .40 S&W .121
165gr .45 ACP .116
40gr .22 LR .114
100gr 9mm Luger .113
50gr .25 ACP .112
95gr 9mm Luger/.380 ACP .108
71gr .32 ACP .104
90gr 9mm Luger/.380 ACP .102
45gr .25 ACP .102
36gr .22 LR .102
65gr .32 ACP .096
32gr .22 LR .092
60gr .32 ACP .088
35gr .25 ACP .079
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
November 8th, 2006 07:16 AM
Before reading this post, I must say that on a practical basis, I agree with Bud in that most of this is academic, when considering various service pistol cartridges at very short combative ranges. However, in terms of broadening and deepening one's understanding of the study of firearms and ammunition, this material is invaluable.
I posted recently in another thread about this subject, and I'll post here as well:
Sectional density, in and of itself, doesn't mean very much. The combination of sectional density, ballistic coefficient, and velocity together determine the penetrative qualities of the bullet.
There is an Achilles' Heel to this formula, however: It doesn't predict the amount of "hang time" that a bullet will experience once inside the body. The greater the "hang time" (amount of time the bullet spends travelling through the medium), the greater the tissue disruption (due to exertion of energy upon the material surrounding the bullet). Too much of any one of the three factors will drastically reduce "hang time".
Hollowpoints are as effective as they are (in comparison to ball) for one very simple reason: It is possible to create a hollowpoint bullet which exhibits greater sectional density and ballistic coefficient needed to penetrate deeply, and such bullet can be propelled at greater velocity in order to develop greater kinetic energy, and then expand within the body and effectively reverse the SD-BC-V formula in order to assure a great deal of hang time (thereby assuring thorough expenditure of energy) by drastically reducing the bullet's penetrative qualities.
I will post more after bit, but I must breakfast first.
November 8th, 2006 09:03 AM
Having breakfasted and Total Gymed, I'm going to apply myself to Hopetonvrshoot's questions directly.
1) Firstly, with regards to the "unscientific test"- remember that a softpoint and a hollowpoint are distinctly different in application. Softpoints aren't meant to experience the exaggerated reversal in SD-BC-V that I described earlier in hollowpoints, they're meant to flatten just enough to 'slow' the bullet. In other words, they're best used in an application where it is useful to allow for significantly deep penetration while increasing "hang time" to a certain extent. Comparing the performance of a softpoint to that of a hollowpoint, utilizing hollowpoint criteria, is fruitless, in the same way that it would be fruitless to compare a hollowpoint to a softpoint utilizing softpoint criteria (for example, in a deer rifle cartridge).
2) As far as whether there is a round which provides optimal performance with no risk of overpenetration, I am afraid to say that no such thing exists. I wouldn't even say that such a round exists, with the criteria of "modest" risk. There are just too many variables to consider to make such a statement.
Further, your statement "I will not allow overpenetration" implies that you believe you have a degree of control over the behavior of bullets, which no-one has.
The best advice anyone can give you regarding a crowded casino floor, is to not use a firearm at all. The rule "know your target and what is behind it" exists for a reason.
Unfortunately, there aren't very many good options for the circumstance you're describing. Guns are out of the question with a mass of people around; pepper spray gets into everyone and may very likely kill an asthmatic bystander; and security personnel beating a combative subject with batons presents an exceptionally poor image of the casino.
I do believe your best bet would be air tasers. Reserve the use of firearms for outside the building, or when the (substantial) risk of killing persons in the immediate vicinity is acceptable- bearing in mind that such occasions are EXTREMELY few and far between.
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