An ammo question...
This is a discussion on An ammo question... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Now, I put this in this forum because although it is strictly an ammo question, it is the implications that I am more concerned about,
November 12th, 2006 10:22 AM
An ammo question...
Now, I put this in this forum because although it is strictly an ammo question, it is the implications that I am more concerned about,
OK, I read or heard somewhere that lead is a major problem with ranges. Consequently, there are some environmental issues and there are moves to phase out lead based ammunition.
Clean ups are also being mandated for some ranges which is very expensive.
The replacements for lead bullets are some kind of nylon/tungsten compound or something similar.
As far as I can find, tungsten core rounds are supposedly classed as armor piercing by the BATFE, so are not for sale to us peons.
If that is the case, could we not be seeing a problem in the future? Lead based ammo outlawed 'for environmental reasons' in the future, and the new 'green bullet' not available to civilians?
I know this is a bit of a stretch, but still........
Last edited by Fragman; November 12th, 2006 at 10:23 AM.
Reason: fat fingers
November 12th, 2006 11:40 AM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
As I understand it, this new tungsten powder/nylon mix is in essence more a tissue frangible than AP - altho it seems it can get thru some solids, body armor has been mentioned. Not sure how it would be ''officially'' classified tho and have yet to learn more about it.
The biggest feature seems to be the in-body break up with no release beyond. Supposedly devastating in effect - and I wonder what surgeons feel about it! Sounds like not much chance for ''patching up''.
I see your reasoning re forum placement but on reflection still think it can best reside in the ammo section, although there are numerous implications as you mention.
Chris - P95
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November 12th, 2006 11:53 AM
Lead is certainly onerous, but it can be dealt with. The problem is the gear for clean up isn't cheap, so ranges are opting to use jacketed ammo only. Especially indoor ranges. For outdoor ranges you just need a management plan and at some point you will have to clean it up. It isn't cheap, but if you plan for it, the cost can be spread over 15-20 years depending on the range usage. So while the estimate to clean up my range is about $200,000 it only needs to be done every 30 years based on the management plan and use numbers. Another way is to go high tech on the bullet traps. But you need a lot of $$$$$$$ to do that.
As for the tungsten, my understanding is it won't be a core tungsten, but a mixed composite. The issue with it is that early testing shows it is very abrasive to barrels so the life span of your firearms, or at least the barrel, becomes significantly shorter. For the hunter, this is probably acceptable. To the shooting enthusiast that puts a lot of rounds downrange I don't believe this is acceptable.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
November 12th, 2006 12:04 PM
OK, I have to chime in here.To the best of my knowladge tungsten carbid becomes raidio active after heated.
Mypersonal experance is that it dose become raido active after heating because there are small amounts of depleated plutonium in it. I use this stuff every day of my working life as it is the electroid we use in tig welding, some have higher amounts of plutonium such as thoriated tungsten for aluminum welding.
1)I had the blast doors at white sands newmexico enclose me in a hundred yards of tunnel because I had just used a grinder to sharpen the tungsten and didnt have a lead tube to carry it in. It will also show up on our raidio activity badges.Ialso had a good buddy who never smoked or chewed tabaco who died of mouth cancer because he carried tungsten around in his mouth it was a parlor trick for him to make it show up out of nowhere
so I would think surgons are going to have a cow when it becomes widly used since I have pricked my self with a hot tungsten rod and almost imediatly becomes infected also tends to shater on impact with any thing else that is even remotly hard wich seems to me that it would leave tinny raido activ fragments trough out the body just my two cents worth
November 12th, 2006 09:54 PM
November 15th, 2006 03:30 AM
Nothing becomes radioactive as a result of merely being heated (unless you're talking about temperatures high enough for nuclear fusion, but I'm quite certain that isn't the case). There are no significant natural radioisotopes of tungsten.
Originally Posted by ssssthesnake
However... some tungsten welding electrodes have a small amount of thorium content (of order 1%). Thorium is radioactive, mostly an alpha emitter (but also beta and gamma). It should be pretty harmless unless you eat it.
(My first post here - I'm just passing through these forums, trying to learn some stuff about firearms. I'm an astrophysicist, so I know a bit about radioactivity.)
November 15th, 2006 08:33 AM
I am always amazed at the wide diversity of people who visit here
to my mind this is truly Democracy operating at its finest.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
November 15th, 2006 08:58 AM
welcome to the forum nobody lol and thanks for chiming in on the tungston issue . So it was the release or atomisation of the thorium that had the effect of radation if i understand you right then ?
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November 15th, 2006 09:47 AM
The Interior Dpt. did a study on contamination of lead from ranges on FS land during the Clinton Admin. They found that lead from the ranges was not escapeing from the range to contaminate the water supply even when there were creeks within 100 meters of the range. This study was done as a backdoor attempt to close public ranges on public land. Since the results of the study were not what the Admin wanted the were queitly annouced in a few enviromental journals. Lead dust from indoor ranges are a different problem.
November 15th, 2006 02:01 PM
Probably... grinding a thoriated tungsten electrode will release metal dust, a small amount of which will be radioactive thorium.
Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
Some sort of polymer-bonded (or jacketed/frangible?) tungsten would probably work pretty well for bullets, though the manufacturer would have to be careful to prevent too much penetration. A high-tungsten steel bullet would be too hard, like an AP round... not very safe for use aside from military purposes.
November 19th, 2006 11:56 AM
thanks nobody love to get the sientific data when i can education and all id did cause mouth cancer in a friend of mine for sure he is dead now and the docs have said that was the most likely cause but i dont know all the tech stuff thanks agine im a little smarter now
November 20th, 2006 04:02 PM
Although lead does pose some environmental concerns, quite often it is raised by persons or organizations interested in shutting down ranges or in halting their proposed expansion. The environmental card is one of many they play in their legal wranglings to move ranges out of high value ares targeted for development. Ranges, knowing this, put together a "lead management plan" in advance to show their good intent in being responsible neighbors and avoid potential law suits.
BTW, I shoot bismuth in my shotguns while waterfowling, and I am pleased with the performance. Not excited about the price, however. Any alternative to lead will be expensive.
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