An ammo question...

This is a discussion on An ammo question... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Now, I put this in this forum because although it is strictly an ammo question, it is the implications that I am more concerned about, ...

Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: An ammo question...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    568

    An ammo question...

    Now, I put this in this forum because although it is strictly an ammo question, it is the implications that I am more concerned about,

    OK, I read or heard somewhere that lead is a major problem with ranges. Consequently, there are some environmental issues and there are moves to phase out lead based ammunition.

    Clean ups are also being mandated for some ranges which is very expensive.

    The replacements for lead bullets are some kind of nylon/tungsten compound or something similar.

    As far as I can find, tungsten core rounds are supposedly classed as armor piercing by the BATFE, so are not for sale to us peons.

    If that is the case, could we not be seeing a problem in the future? Lead based ammo outlawed 'for environmental reasons' in the future, and the new 'green bullet' not available to civilians?

    I know this is a bit of a stretch, but still........
    Last edited by Fragman; November 12th, 2006 at 09:23 AM. Reason: fat fingers

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    As I understand it, this new tungsten powder/nylon mix is in essence more a tissue frangible than AP - altho it seems it can get thru some solids, body armor has been mentioned. Not sure how it would be ''officially'' classified tho and have yet to learn more about it.

    The biggest feature seems to be the in-body break up with no release beyond. Supposedly devastating in effect - and I wonder what surgeons feel about it! Sounds like not much chance for ''patching up''.

    I see your reasoning re forum placement but on reflection still think it can best reside in the ammo section, although there are numerous implications as you mention.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  4. #3
    VIP Member
    Array Scott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Old Dominion
    Posts
    5,050
    Lead is certainly onerous, but it can be dealt with. The problem is the gear for clean up isn't cheap, so ranges are opting to use jacketed ammo only. Especially indoor ranges. For outdoor ranges you just need a management plan and at some point you will have to clean it up. It isn't cheap, but if you plan for it, the cost can be spread over 15-20 years depending on the range usage. So while the estimate to clean up my range is about $200,000 it only needs to be done every 30 years based on the management plan and use numbers. Another way is to go high tech on the bullet traps. But you need a lot of $$$$$$$ to do that.

    As for the tungsten, my understanding is it won't be a core tungsten, but a mixed composite. The issue with it is that early testing shows it is very abrasive to barrels so the life span of your firearms, or at least the barrel, becomes significantly shorter. For the hunter, this is probably acceptable. To the shooting enthusiast that puts a lot of rounds downrange I don't believe this is acceptable.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array ssssthesnake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    552
    OK, I have to chime in here.To the best of my knowladge tungsten carbid becomes raidio active after heated.
    Mypersonal experance is that it dose become raido active after heating because there are small amounts of depleated plutonium in it. I use this stuff every day of my working life as it is the electroid we use in tig welding, some have higher amounts of plutonium such as thoriated tungsten for aluminum welding.
    1)I had the blast doors at white sands newmexico enclose me in a hundred yards of tunnel because I had just used a grinder to sharpen the tungsten and didnt have a lead tube to carry it in. It will also show up on our raidio activity badges.Ialso had a good buddy who never smoked or chewed tabaco who died of mouth cancer because he carried tungsten around in his mouth it was a parlor trick for him to make it show up out of nowhere
    so I would think surgons are going to have a cow when it becomes widly used since I have pricked my self with a hot tungsten rod and almost imediatly becomes infected also tends to shater on impact with any thing else that is even remotly hard wich seems to me that it would leave tinny raido activ fragments trough out the body just my two cents worth

  6. #5
    VIP Member
    Array nn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    7,119
    copper, brass, bismuth

  7. #6
    New Member Array nobody_special's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by ssssthesnake View Post
    OK, I have to chime in here.To the best of my knowladge tungsten carbid becomes raidio active after heated.
    Mypersonal experance is that it dose become raido active after heating because there are small amounts of depleated plutonium in it.
    Nothing becomes radioactive as a result of merely being heated (unless you're talking about temperatures high enough for nuclear fusion, but I'm quite certain that isn't the case). There are no significant natural radioisotopes of tungsten.

    However... some tungsten welding electrodes have a small amount of thorium content (of order 1%). Thorium is radioactive, mostly an alpha emitter (but also beta and gamma). It should be pretty harmless unless you eat it.

    - David
    (My first post here - I'm just passing through these forums, trying to learn some stuff about firearms. I'm an astrophysicist, so I know a bit about radioactivity.)

  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Array enigmaone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    englewood fl
    Posts
    1,054
    I am always amazed at the wide diversity of people who visit here
    to my mind this is truly Democracy operating at its finest.
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,133
    welcome to the forum nobody lol and thanks for chiming in on the tungston issue . So it was the release or atomisation of the thorium that had the effect of radation if i understand you right then ?
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  10. #9
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,399
    The Interior Dpt. did a study on contamination of lead from ranges on FS land during the Clinton Admin. They found that lead from the ranges was not escapeing from the range to contaminate the water supply even when there were creeks within 100 meters of the range. This study was done as a backdoor attempt to close public ranges on public land. Since the results of the study were not what the Admin wanted the were queitly annouced in a few enviromental journals. Lead dust from indoor ranges are a different problem.

  11. #10
    New Member Array nobody_special's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    welcome to the forum nobody lol and thanks for chiming in on the tungston issue . So it was the release or atomisation of the thorium that had the effect of radation if i understand you right then ?
    Probably... grinding a thoriated tungsten electrode will release metal dust, a small amount of which will be radioactive thorium.

    Some sort of polymer-bonded (or jacketed/frangible?) tungsten would probably work pretty well for bullets, though the manufacturer would have to be careful to prevent too much penetration. A high-tungsten steel bullet would be too hard, like an AP round... not very safe for use aside from military purposes.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array ssssthesnake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    utah
    Posts
    552
    thanks nobody love to get the sientific data when i can education and all id did cause mouth cancer in a friend of mine for sure he is dead now and the docs have said that was the most likely cause but i dont know all the tech stuff thanks agine im a little smarter now

  13. #12
    Member Array rotorhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    24
    Although lead does pose some environmental concerns, quite often it is raised by persons or organizations interested in shutting down ranges or in halting their proposed expansion. The environmental card is one of many they play in their legal wranglings to move ranges out of high value ares targeted for development. Ranges, knowing this, put together a "lead management plan" in advance to show their good intent in being responsible neighbors and avoid potential law suits.
    BTW, I shoot bismuth in my shotguns while waterfowling, and I am pleased with the performance. Not excited about the price, however. Any alternative to lead will be expensive.

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. AMMO Question
    By Zsnake in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: September 2nd, 2010, 08:42 PM
  2. BG's Ammo? Question for LEO's...
    By VegasSIG in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: December 7th, 2007, 10:17 AM
  3. Question about Ammo?
    By Antares in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: March 18th, 2007, 01:51 AM
  4. ammo question
    By moonshot in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: March 4th, 2007, 06:49 PM
  5. 9mm ammo question
    By sixgun in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: March 26th, 2006, 02:11 PM

Search tags for this page

activ ammo

,

ammunition tungsten electrode

,

pricked by tungsten rod

,

tungsten core ammunition for sale

,

tungsten elactrode bullet core

Click on a term to search for related topics.