+p-p+ in an old gun

This is a discussion on +p-p+ in an old gun within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi,new here and the first question that I would like to put forward is about these hotter than the norm rounds. I purchased online, four ...

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    New Member Array woodbee's Avatar
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    +p-p+ in an old gun

    Hi,new here and the first question that I would like to put forward is about these hotter than the norm rounds. I purchased online, four boxes of Buffalo Bore .32 ACP +p 75gr. flat nosed rounds. I did not notice the +p notation or it wasn't listed that way on the site. I have spent most of this morning trying to really make sense of the p+ & +p concept. Way too much varying info. Regardless, I presume that I should not have bought them. I have a 1914 Mauser pocket pistol actually made in 1913. The gun is in tremendous condition. It looks like it lived in a night stand and was rarely if ever shot much. Would the consensus here be to never put them through this gun? Or could I use them just for CC. Will they actually make the gun go bang louder Or could they destroy this gun with a single shot. I know this kind of round will shorten its lifespan if used repeatedly. I wanted more of a defensive round for carrying and they were all I could find. Many folks believe that the FMJ with deeper penetration is better than a flared shallower hole from a JHP. What do you all think?
    Brad

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    I, personally, would not use them in that gun. The higher pressures that are generated are going to be well over what the original manufacture was optimized for at that time. And yes, it could destroy it in a single shot. Hard to know for sure unless you tried.

    Now, I may be totally wrong about this, but is one reason why I won't shoot modern .32 S&W in my Top Break S&W .32 revolver made in 1889. I don't want to chance that I won't have it any longer other than in pieces.
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    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    If you are looking for opinions, you are sure to get plenty. I would check out this sight. SAAMI | Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute
    I would just use the gun for plinking and with differnet ammo. The sight I gave references the Euro what ever sight that is probably what that gun and ammo is covered under.
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    VIP Member Array Taurahe's Avatar
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    if you value your hands and fingers, its not tworth the risk IMO. Shoot regular ball ammo or whatever is supposed to go in it, and have fun with it. The +p is more powerful than regular ammo, and heck, modern standard ammo may be more than the gun was designed to handle. Find out what it was originally intended for, and go from there. Since you have four boxes, you couod always buy a new 32 acp :) or trade it for something else ammo wise maybe. lastly, the gun has more value in working condition than in scrap pieces....... even if the value is sentimental or nostalgic....
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    I like the look of the old Mauser .32 of which you refer and have examined them at gun shows over the years. It gives every appearance of being sturdily built and was considered a high quality product in its day. I'm not familiar with the design however so would hesitate to recommend the use of any sort of "extra power" ammunition in it. I'm guessing the ammunition you mention would not "grenade" the gun but persistent use of such ammunition would have to batter and degrade the pistol over time.

    If I had the Mauser Model 1914 and felt the need to press it into service for personal defense then I probably would subject mine to a minimal test firing of such ammunition to check it for function and to verify point of aim. Then I'd keep it loaded up with the +P stuff for defensive use but would only shoot the pistol with standard velocity ammunition when on the range.

    The .32 ACP may be like the .380 ACP in that there are no SAAMI standards for what constitutes +P performance and pressures. The .380 ACP sold as +P does give a bit more velocity and more forceful ejection, at least in my pistol and I would assume the .32 ACP would behave similarly. Don't know about "loudness." They're all going to be loud enough to ring one's ears.

    An example of the Mauser Model 1914

    http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armsl...pistol_640.jpg
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    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    If I had no other suitable CC gun, I'd follow Bryan's advice:
    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    ...If I had the Mauser Model 1914 and felt the need to press it into service for personal defense then I probably would subject mine to a minimal test firing of such ammunition to check it for function and to verify point of aim. Then I'd keep it loaded up with the +P stuff for defensive use but would only shoot the pistol with standard velocity ammunition when on the range.

    The .32 ACP may be like the .380 ACP in that there are no SAAMI standards for what constitutes +P performance and pressures. The .380 ACP sold as +P does give a bit more velocity and more forceful ejection, at least in my pistol and I would assume the .32 ACP would behave similarly...
    If I had another gun to rely on for CC, though, I don't think I'd subject that old gun to that ammo.

    Bryan is correct about +P in the .32 ACP - For calibers for which +P IS defined, it generally means loaded to pressures nominally 10% over standard. Since there is no such thing as .32 ACP +P, at least as defined by any reputable standard, the designation is misleading at best, and dangerous at worst.
    Regards,
    Jim
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    Senior Member Array Fausty's Avatar
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    Don't risk it. Shoot them out of something specifically rated for +P or sell them on armslist.
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    Brad,
    Why would you shoot 21st century ammo in an obscure 20th century pistol? If I owned a uncommon automobile built in 1913, I wouldn't spent a lot of time deciding if I could/should install a NOS system & twin turbos. Your Mauser is-what-it-is, it's like trying to decide if you should have your Peek-a-poo trained as...an attack dog. Even if you did, what good would it do?
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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...all the advice I've ever heard in gunstores and conversation long before forums said NO...
    ...I think your hands and eyes are far too valuable to risk it...hang it on the wall and enjoy looking at it...I'd go so far as to remove the firing pin, lest future generations might be tempted...

    ...had to go look at a picture to be sure, but my then-96-year-old great-uncle gave me one of those in .32 in Pa. in 1965...we wrapped it up and brought it back to LA and I kept it a year then traded it at the LGS for a bunch of ammo...

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    New Member Array woodbee's Avatar
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    No nostalgia or sentimentality here. I bought this gun to carry during hot times in the old town at night. I have several full frame pistols but just don't want to carry them in shorts and a T shirt.
    I grew up in construction and hanging with all sorts of engineers. It seems like everything is over designed by about 40% today. And 100 years ago many things were double or triple required numbers but, not everything.
    I have been putting Federal FMJ 71gr. through the system and enjoying the hell out of it. Every 100-200 rounds it comes apart, cleaned and inspected. I have seen no wear what so ever.I would only use the +p stuff for carry purposes just because of the better numbers on a gun that is marginal at best. The Buffalo Bore adds 92ft./lbs. and 250 ft./sec. over the Federal. That does not seem to be too big of numbers upwards. But I just don't know what standards this gun was designed for. From my reading, this appears to be of the best quality period of all of Mauser's years. I have been trying to contact a fellow in Germany that strictly collects Mauser's but, I seem to be getting lost in the translation.
    The option of buying a new gun is not on the table. The wife bought me this one for my birthday that is still two months away. Besides I am a wood and steel kind of guy and just don't care for the blocky plastics out there today. And if I did, I would have at least another 9mm. I really do like this gun and the chance of ever using it defensibly is really tiny. I hope
    Thanks for all of your input and keep it coming.
    Brad
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  12. #11
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    Your Mauser is a decently strudy, hefty, high quality firearm compared to say...the little KelTec (with its incredibly thin barrel) which can handle the +P and (in fact) was tested with that same ammo by BuffaloBore. Euro ammo was typically stiffer shooting stuff compared to the American counterparts.

    I think that pushing a very slightly heavier bullet at only 115 to 150 FPS faster than an American loading you would possibly be OK with it.
    You do need to remember that metallurgy is better now than it was back in 1914.

    I certainly would NOT say absolutely "go for it" because that would be stupid of me to do so but, what I would tell you to do is call BuffaloBore and ask to speak with one of their technical people. You should get a straight answer from them. They are great, honest folks.

    They may suggest that you do something as simple as adding a heavier recoil spring (or springs) or they may say Don't DO It!

    Or they may say:Carry it for defense but, don't shoot a lot of it.
    SO...bottom line I am not saying "do it" but, if you have 4 boxes +P - it's worth making a phone call and getting an answer from the ammo maker.

    If it was my gun and it had no sentimental value to me I would buy fresh springs - put on a pair of good leather shooting gloves and a long sleeve jacket and a pair of polycarbonate protective shooting glasses and shoot a couple of magazines full and then disassemble and carefully examine the firearm for damage or excessive pressure indications.

    But, I have been known to do dumb things like that. But, I only do things for myself and do not push my possibly wrong opinions on others.

    But, I do not do dumb things without having some logical thinking to back up my actions.
    My logical thinking in this instance is that the KelTec in.32 is basically the exact same flimsy gun as the plastic, aluminum, thin barreled KelTec .380 and the KelTec .380 can handle the BuffaloBore .380 +P so why wouldn't a much more rock solid heavier steel, heavier, thicker, barreled firearm than the KelTec .380 AKA the Mauser be able to handle the less powerful .32 +P ? which sports less pressure than a .380 +P ?
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    IMO, the basically sound practice is to fire ammo only in weapons designed for that ammo, and only in weapons where you know for certain the metallurgy on that weapon is up to the task. (Most any newer +P rated firearm basically qualifies.) I'd be willing to bet your 1913 Mauser is a bit question mark. Might want to get the opinion of a competent gunsmith who's very familiar with vintage Mausers. In the meantime, I wouldn't use the higher-pressure rounds.
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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...may be interesting or helpful to you:

    Mauser Pocket Pistols

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    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    ...may be interesting or helpful to you:

    Mauser Pocket Pistols
    Good read!

    I'm a little surprised, though. The author is obviously very knowledgeable about Mausers, yet he writes, "The Mauser HSc came out in 1939 and was produced by Mauser at least until 1946", with no reference at all to later production.

    The HSc was available in new production from the late 60's through about '78. I know, because I almost bought one many times! Ended up with a PPK/s and later a Beretta M84 instead, but I really did like the HSc. Saw one at a gun show a few months ago and was still tempted!
    Regards,
    Jim
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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...yep, even Wiki knows that...wonder why the author missed it... Mauser HSc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I was tempted, too, when I bought my PPK...neat little pistols...made solid...

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