40 cal Blunt Nose

This is a discussion on 40 cal Blunt Nose within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I carry a 40 cal. Nearly all my "plinking" ammo is a blunt flat nose; I'm sure most of you know what it looks like. ...

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Thread: 40 cal Blunt Nose

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    40 cal Blunt Nose

    I carry a 40 cal.
    Nearly all my "plinking" ammo is a blunt flat nose; I'm sure most of you know what it looks like.

    It seems to me this round compared to the "rounded" 9mm would be fairly effective in and of itself?.
    BTW; I understand the argument of penetration and pass thru, so I'm not looking to go there.

    I'm NOT a ballistics expert, though my understanding of basic physics tells me this might not be a bad round to carry or at
    least perhaps alternate them in the magazine?

    Any gelatin tests someone can reference or other empirical data?
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    VIP Member Array GhostMaker's Avatar
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    Having been involved in ballistic testing as a cop I have seen these rounds tested. What you will end up with is a .40cal hole punched through the intended target. Temporary Stretch Cavities with these loads are basically nonexistant as the energy the round has is used to penetrate the target organism. The Permanent Crush Cavity is simply going to be the .40cal "rat-hole" you bore through it with the shot. To kind of illustrate this I have attached a link below to a video (you may have already seen similar ones). Marshall and Sanow's study has the 40S&W FMJ at roughly a 50% stopper, which roughly is equal to the 9mm and 45ACP Full Metal Jacket loads. Basically using this load, even in a trunjent cone form, equates to punching holes through them till you hit something worth shooting.

    Ballistics test - 40 Cal - Car Door + .25 inch steel plate - Penetration test (trailer) - YouTube
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    Any 40 round will be better than a comparative 9mm round.

    But I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are already using HP ammo, what's the point in staggering the mag with a jacketed flat nose? If you want a solid type bullet, the only way to go is an all lead flat nose.

    Either carry one or the other. Maybe you want to carry an extra mag filled with an alternative bullet? That would make more sense, but again, I don't really see a need to.
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    If you want a solid type bullet, the only way to go is an all lead flat nose.
    Agreed.

    Detective Jim Cirillo advocated using full wadcutters for self-defense. He thought the tissue crushing power of the wadcutter led to a better wound channel. Elmer Keith favored a semi-wadcutter for similar reasons. The "FBI load" or "Chicago load" was a .38 Special with semi-wadcutters. I personally think penetration, to the point of creating two holes, makes sense. Expanding bullets aren't magical. I don't think punching a hole through your target is a bad idea.

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    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    There is absolutely no reason to not use a hollow point unless illegal where you are. A FMJ will actually make a sub caliber hole in a BG as the bullet slips thru VS crushes, tears like a HP.
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    Senior Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    There is absolutely no reason to not use a hollow point unless illegal where you are. A FMJ will actually make a sub caliber hole in a BG as the bullet slips thru VS crushes, tears like a HP.
    I'm finding some inconsistencies in that statement depending on shape of the bullet. (i.e) wad cutter..which is what my 40 cal. practice ammo looks like.

    A Quick Note on Bullet Diameter - Some folks who think the 9 mm is the perfect round say "how can a "silly millimeter" between a 9 mm / .355" and a 10 mm / .40" make any real difference. What they are missing is the fact that it's not the diameter that's important, but rather the area of impact that determines the amount of damage produced--the reason we like to use expanding bullets. Note the how the percentage of impact/damage area increase as bullet diameter goes up. Since expanding bullets frequently do not expand it makes sense to start with a bullet diameter you'd like the 9 mm bullets to expand to.
    This as well I found interesting:
    Incidentally, round or pointed nose, non-expanding bullets tend to push tissue aside rather than crush it, and the permanent cavity for a non-tumbling bullet of these designs usually runs about 65 -70 percent of the diameter of the projectile. Non-expanding heavy jacketed or monolithic (solid metal) projectiles with large metplates yield permanent cavities of between 70 and 80 percent of the diameter of the projectile (and the large metplats helps them to penetrate in a straight path rather than veer off. ) The very blunt and often sharp-edged shape of an expanded projectile can yield a a permanent cavity of between 80 - 90+ percent of the expanded projectile's diameter.
    Originating Page: Terminal Ballistics

    I'm still somewhat unconvinced if I should be carrying HP's which may expand premature when encountering medium to heavy clothing thereby reducing penetration depth, or go with a match grade FMJ 165 or 180gr blunt nose.

    The article was quite interesting...looks like I may have to do some expensive testing.
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    Senior Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post

    But I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are already using HP ammo, what's the point in staggering the mag with a jacketed flat nose? If you want a solid type bullet, the only way to go is an all lead flat nose.
    Sorry Glockman..meant to answer sooner but the day got kinda' hectic.
    The reason I'm considering staggering is this; if my first few shots don't land where I intend initially, I think I will be seeking cover, and no doubt the bad guy too. I would want perhaps the remaining 5 or 6 rounds to have the ability to penetrate basic cover..wood, thinner metal like a car door etc...
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    I agree with GhostMaker completely! Over penetration on human targets would be expected. OTOH, if I was hunting hogs and was carrying a .40 I would not want a hollow point. In that case I think that a jacketed flat point would do a better job. Different projectiles = different purpose. YMMV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Sorry Glockman..meant to answer sooner but the day got kinda' hectic.
    The reason I'm considering staggering is this; if my first few shots don't land where I intend initially, I think I will be seeking cover, and no doubt the bad guy too. I would want perhaps the remaining 5 or 6 rounds to have the ability to penetrate basic cover..wood, thinner metal like a car door etc...
    While I understand your thinking, I believe you are thinking too much.
    If you want a HP, just use the heaviest loading you can find, and it will have more metal behind the " petal" to continue to push thru a light barrier, such as a car door or glass.

    While I prefer a lead bullet with a wide metplate, unless you handload it, the only type of solid you will find factory are the trunacated fmj style such as you have spoken about. But since you cannot control the velocity, it may be too much of a good thing.
    GhostMaker and Cuda66 like this.
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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    Sorry Glockman..meant to answer sooner but the day got kinda' hectic.
    The reason I'm considering staggering is this; if my first few shots don't land where I intend initially, I think I will be seeking cover, and no doubt the bad guy too. I would want perhaps the remaining 5 or 6 rounds to have the ability to penetrate basic cover..wood, thinner metal like a car door etc...
    Most modern, quality JHP's are designed to still be effective after light barriers such as you described; light sheet steel (body steel), windshield glass, sheetrock, wooden doors, etc...particularly bonded JHP's.

    If this is something you are seriously concerned about, I'd recommend looking at rounds such as the Winchester PDX-1/Ranger Bonded, Speer LE Gold Dot, Federal HST, Remington Bonded Golden Saber, or loads using the all-copper Barnes Tac-X bullet (CorBon DPX, also loaded by Wilson Combat, Black Hills, ASYM, and a few others), and just loading your entire magazine with them (after, of course, verifying your pistol likes 'em).
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