I wonder why Jeff Cooper decided to develope the 10mm???

I wonder why Jeff Cooper decided to develope the 10mm???

This is a discussion on I wonder why Jeff Cooper decided to develope the 10mm??? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As the spokeman for the .45 ACP for countless years, a master combat shooter, and a writer, I really wonder why Cooper decided to develope ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array deadmarsh's Avatar
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    I wonder why Jeff Cooper decided to develope the 10mm???

    As the spokeman for the .45 ACP for countless years, a master combat shooter, and a writer, I really wonder why Cooper decided to develope the 10mm and a platform for the caliber?

    Any ideas?


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  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Works in the same size platform as the 45

    Higher Energy than the 45

    Flatter Shooting than the 45

    Large Mass (200 - 220 grain) (Comprable to the 45)

    Seems clear to me.

  3. #3
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Something to do? Because it was there?

    The 10mm has always seemed to me like a solution to a non-existent problem, but then there are a lot of those out there.

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Works in the same sized platform. AGREED

    Higher energy than the .45. Partially AGREED. Same bbl lengths, and a .45+P comes pretty darn close. Especially if you plug in some of the TKO values.(CWV divided by 7000) Step up to the Super or especially the Rowland and the 10mm loses.

    Flatter shooting than the .45 Kinda,almost,simi AGREE. But not at the "normal" pistol ranges. Especially the street combat ranges.

    Large mass..... Back during the days of first conception(IIRC) they did not have the powders or even think of using a bullet heavier than (just guessing,the 180's) Remember that the 10mm uses a .400" bullet and the .41 mag uses a .410" bullet. So I say, I'm not sure what bullets were around in the first days of the 10 mil.

    To why he thought that the world needed a smaller "faster" bullet than the .45,I don't have a clue. This was before the Super or Rowland but not(IIRC) before the .451 Detonics. It came as a surprise to many people I would guess.

    I feel that for hunting,a 5 or 6 inch .45ACP with some of the +P or +P+ loads would be right up their with the 10mm. Especially loaded with some of the .45 Super brass. A 5" ACP with a simple bbl and spring change,in .460 Rowland would trounce any 10mm load. Even the DT loads.

    Too bad that Glock decided to come out with their 20 in 10mm. Would have loved to see it out in a HOT!! .45. --------

  5. #5
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    I think he was just bored.

  6. #6
    Member Array deadmarsh's Avatar
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    RSSZ:

    Yes, I do have a .460 Rowland conversion on a 1911 S&W Gov't and I must say it is impressive. It's my trail handgun when I hunt my Uncle's ranch in Montana near Yellowstone (just too many big bears that decided they didn't like the Park anymore wandering around)...

    A 1350 f/s, 230gr XTP or solid @ 900+ ft lbs. is nice if you somehow get seperated from your rifle. And in a controllable package that can achieve rapid fire, my 5" or less .44 Magnums don't ride with me often anymore since the Rowland outperforms them with equal barrel lengths with a larger caliber...

    I don't, however, like the name. Oh, I understand the reason, but since it can use .45ACP dies and such, the .460 designation is a bit misleading. IMO, something akin to .45 Hyper might have been better...


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    PS: I do like the Sierra 240gr JHC in the Rowland as well...
    Last edited by deadmarsh; November 21st, 2006 at 01:22 PM. Reason: forgot a few things...

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    We had a discussion at the range the other day about this.

    For defense(of 2 OR 4 legged creatures) in the "relm" of .44mag ballistics,I feel that I would be better off with a 1911 auto,with 8+1 and a fast reload,than a 5 or 6 shot revo.

    I have a "spare" 1911 sittin' in my safe. I ought to give Clark Custom a call.

    I heard tell that Cooper was pleased with the Rowland thing and he actually had some input to it's finalization. -------

  8. #8
    Member Array deadmarsh's Avatar
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    RSSZ:

    If you have a C&R FFL, you can get the conversion for around $220.00...

    Mine dropped into the S&W 1911 Gov't with no need for fitting. The toughest job was putting in the new 24# spring -- a padded vise is the secret and a couple tie-wraps. After a few dozen rounds, the spring is much more cooperative...

    Reloads -- Starline brass, Golden Sabers, XTP, Sierra JHC proved very accurate; keep OAL to 1.250"...

    My S&W is a non-ramped barrel so I DO NOT reload these to full pressures once fired - since we are at max pressures (39,000 psi) I use only virgin brass for firing the max pressures. I load 75% for once fired .460 Rowland -- not really necessry, but I'm usually conservative when it comes to my safety. The all steel 1911 platform can handle the pressures well; I'm just not too sure of the Starline brass...

    I fire a mag or two every other range run (3 times/week usually) I carry 7+1 (MetalForm) and spare mags for the .460 are Mec-Gar 10 rounders...

    Let me know if I can help in any way. You can get reload data through Google and a nice article about the conversion and loading from a non-Clark person....good luck


    Dead


    PS: I DO NOT recommend any shok-buffs....

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    I am a fan of 10mm....
    Smith 1006 are very nice HGs and the CZs are a great value....
    A bit pricey to shoot on a regular basis, though...
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    You compare 10mm with 45acp and 460 rowland and other's you forgot 10mm mag. Some people don't know but a pistol called Mars had a 10mm, so it's not so new as you think. No round well cover all situations. For me 45acp or 10mm for ccw.Been shooting both for years.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Jeff cooper did NOT develop the 10mm ctg. he was instrimental in the ill fated bren 10 tho , that was basicly a cz in 10mm . I still dont understand why he pushed for it ( other than double stack mag ) over the 1911 .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Jeff cooper did NOT develop the 10mm ctg. he was instrimental in the ill fated bren 10 tho , that was basicly a cz in 10mm . I still dont understand why he pushed for it ( other than double stack mag ) over the 1911 .
    Guns& Ammo with Cooper used a Browning High power for a workable weapon. The 10mm covers the spot from 357 to 45acp.The 10mm is a versatile round, ccw to hunting.

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    deadmarsh, don't know what a C&R FFL is but I can get the conversion(bbl w/ brake,and I believe that they send two recoil springs,one is a 24lb) from Clark Custom for $275. This w/o any FFL involvement.

    Are we talking the same thing ?? -----

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    IIRC, Col Cooper's intention was to find a caliber for a semi auto that would match (or surpass) the .357 Mag.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm_Auto

    THIS is why 10mm was implemented by the FBI:

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ View Post
    deadmarsh, don't know what a C&R FFL is but I can get the conversion(bbl w/ brake,and I believe that they send two recoil springs,one is a 24lb) from Clark Custom for $275. This w/o any FFL involvement.

    Are we talking the same thing ?? -----
    C&R FFL is for collectors of curios and relics. Mostly weapons over 50 years old and on BATF list. It costs $30 for a 3 yr. license. Most dealers give discounts on accessories and supplies to C&R holders. Here is a pretty good article about C&R. C&R
    George

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