45 Auto and 45 ACP--Same?

This is a discussion on 45 Auto and 45 ACP--Same? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Back on topic. Yes, they are the same. Kelcarry, I'm sure you will appreciate my input, and saving your thread from those rude hijackers above. ...

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Thread: 45 Auto and 45 ACP--Same?

  1. #16
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    Back on topic.

    Yes, they are the same.

    Kelcarry, I'm sure you will appreciate my input, and saving your thread from those rude hijackers above.

    The nerve of some posters. Sheese.
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
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    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    How many moderators does it take...

    Never mind.

    To my knowledge, the only .45 rounds in fairly common use currently are ACP (aka Auto), Long Colt, and GAP. ACP is by far the most common, and the others are visibly longer and shorter, respectively. Any I'm missing?
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    As mentioned, yes they are.

    To the history of the .45ACP, the cartridge (with a 200 grain bullet at that time) was designed by John Browning in 1904, for use in his then prototype M1905. Meaning, it was JMB's .45 calibre to be used in the
    Automatic Colt Pistol.


    (photo courtesy of Sam Lisker's Colt Autos.com)
    OD*'s Mr 1911 for sure on this forum, both to members and moderators. He's well-versed on both the gun and 1911 lore.

    Beside's that he's an all-around neato guy with a wry sense of humor.



    Here's "Pancho Villa," the Colt Model 1905 with a south of the border background. The only gun in the collection actually given a name, its a sad-looking late production example but gives good function and accuracy.

    For more beautiful examples of the Model 1905 in all its glory, visit the link OD*'s provided, Sam Lisker's site. Here are just a couple.
    Colt 1905 Military .45 ACP Pistol Slotted for Combination Stock Holster - Coltautos.com
    Colt 1905 Military .45 ACP Pistol Slotted for Combination Stock Holster - Coltautos.com


    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    An obscure 45 round you may run into on occasion is the 45AR, AR meaning Auto Rim. This is a round identical to the 45ACP with the exception that it is a rimmed round whereas the ACP is rimless. The round was intended for use in the M1917 Colt since it did not require using half-moon clips.
    If it's obscure it's probably around here somewhere. Three brass-colored .45 Auto Rim cartridges may be seen mixed in with the .45 ACP ammunition and clips in this photo. As msgt/ret points out, the cartridge is identical to the .45 ACP, only saving for the special rim which allows it to be used in the .45 ACP revolvers. The fat rim maintains proper head space and facilitates ejection of the empties. Introduced in 1920 by the Peters cartridge company as a convenient ammunition product for the .45 ACP revolvers, both commercial and some military "escapees" that were circulating at the time. Interior case volume is identical to the .45 ACP case so .45 ACP loads may be duplicated with identical results.

    Colt M1917 (top) and Smith & Wesson M1917

    These revolvers have been fired using ammunition put up in .45 Auto Rim cartridge cases more than they have with .45 ACP.
    msgt/ret, OD* and 357and40 like this.
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  5. #19
    OD*
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    You got the neatest damned toys, Bryan!

    What year is your 1905, later model I presume because of the spur hammer?



    ETA: I missed the "late production" and it certainly isn't, sad-looking.

    (on second thought, why don't you just send that rat to me, being the swell guy I am, I won't even charge you a disposal fee!)
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

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  6. #20
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    No letter but with a serial number of 5700-'n-something it's probably 1910-1911.

    A pistol this ratty would spoil your whole menagerie.

    I'm thinking I posted it's tale some years ago here on Defensive Carry, among other places. Was a fun acquisition. Anyway, here it is again.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________

    "Pancho Villa" the Colt Model 1905

    My 1905 is far from perfect. It is complete, original, has the proper magazine, and is in good order, but the blue has turned to a soft brown patina except in a few protected areas. The original finely checkered walnut grip panels are so worn that most of the checkering is completely gone.

    When I worked for a bank in Glen Rose, Texas I had a Mexican lady who was my customer and who also used cleaned the bank. After her brother had died she spoke of a Colt .45 automatic she had around the house that had been her brother's gun. She said it had previously been her grandfather's pistol and that he'd brought it with him when he came up from Mexico. I love old guns and envisioned an old beater of a U. S. Army .45 so asked her to bring it by sometime. She said she would and that in fact she'd thought of selling it as she was concerned about having it about the house with her grandchildren. I didn't much think I'd want it as I had some decent military .45's. One day she brought it by my office wrapped in a rag inside a paper sack. I'm sure my chin hit the desk when I unwrapped it to find a Model 1905. Only about 6200 were ever made. Of course I was interested in purchasing it and told her so. She was hesitant as it was a family heirloom. I said: "that's ok, I don't blame you for wanting to hang on to it. Why don't you let me clean it up for you so it may be better preserved?" So I cleaned it , oiled it, and gave it a thin coating of RIG. I returned it to her and didn't think any more about it.

    Several years later, and after I'd left that bank, I ran into her and she asked me if I still wanted to buy her .45. Well of course I did so I took possession of the old pistol.

    I've read that the early Colt automatics with the dual link "parallel slide rule" design were unsafe to fire. The design doesn't share many of the later 1911's attributes. After examining the design closely I determined that if the slide velocity wasn't too high that the gun should be fine to fire. The .45 ACP as it was introduced in 1905 featured a 200 grain bullet, so I prepared some 200 grain lead SWC handloads with a moderate charge of Unique. I worked up from the minimum listed charge weight to a middle-of-the-road charge which gave good function. The old gun is as accurate as my other military .45's and has never jammed. I wouldn't subject it to a lot of use but am willing to take it out for occasional exercise.

    I've never indulged in naming my firearms with the exception of this one which I call Pancho Villa. It just has to be one of his original guns. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I keep intending to spring the hundred bucks for a Colt factory letter but haven't gotten around to it.

    As may be seen it's missing a couple of grip screws. I'm certain that the same sized screw fits several early Colt semi-auto pistols but how often does one stumble across any such pistol or screws? If anyone has a suggestion for a source I'd be grateful to know it.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________


    Pancho Villa "roars into action" at a "meet-n-greet" in Tennessee a few years back, hosted by a member of a private forum I'm on. A fairly prominent S&W forum member's putting it through its paces while I man the camera. The smoke is from the bullet lube used. Notice the ejected cartridge case in mid-air in this "action shot."
    OD*, msgt/ret and GhostMaker like this.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  7. #21
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    Very cool!!

    Great story too!
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Somebody is inching a bit closer to becoming an Ex-Member.
    Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! I DO NOT need to laugh this hard in the mornings! Combined with my arthritis I just cracked more joints than Bill Clinton!
    OD* likes this.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostMaker View Post
    Combined with my arthritis I just cracked more joints than Bill Clinton!
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    I appreciate the kind sentiments, I really do.

    I am no guru by any means, just a student of the 1911 that is fortunate enough to learn something new about them everyday it seems.

    And you Sir are spot on about the Colonel.
    Well Sir I was being most sincere. I am of that last generation of Army GI's to be trained on the 1911, and carried one as a police officer, at least until a new Chief came in that didn't understand a 1911 has more safeties than a S&W 5906 (which is what he made us go to). You sir are a wealth of knowledge on the old war horse, and my daddy raised me with the good sense to respect a man that actually knows.

    On another note, I noticed you mention a name in a post to QK I had not heard of in years, Armand Swenson. Some of the finest looking pistols I have ever seen were turned out by that man's hands. I particularly like the one Walt Rauch uses in some of his articles. Anyone who has the means and opportunity to acquire one of his works of art would be well advised to do so.
    OD* likes this.
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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    What kind of shell holder do you put the auto rimmed rounds in when you're reloading (.50?). Obviously they won't fit in a .45 ACP holder...
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive." C.S. Lewis

  12. #26
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    In RCBS it would be a #8.

    RCBS Shellholder #8 (45 Auto Rim)
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

  13. #27
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    Something that seems to have been left out, NEVER USE .45 GAP in a 1911. It's made for Glocks only and won't work in the 1911.
    "Western civilization didn't make all men equal,
    Samuel Colt did"

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostMaker View Post
    Well Sir I was being most sincere. I am of that last generation of Army GI's to be trained on the 1911, and carried one as a police officer, at least until a new Chief came in that didn't understand a 1911 has more safeties than a S&W 5906 (which is what he made us go to). You sir are a wealth of knowledge on the old war horse, and my daddy raised me with the good sense to respect a man that actually knows.

    On another note, I noticed you mention a name in a post to QK I had not heard of in years, Armand Swenson. Some of the finest looking pistols I have ever seen were turned out by that man's hands. I particularly like the one Walt Rauch uses in some of his articles. Anyone who has the means and opportunity to acquire one of his works of art would be well advised to do so.
    Thank you mi amigo.

    Could not agree with you more about Mr. Swenson, I would dearly love to have one of his original "Custom Combat" 45s. You may find this article quite enjoyable (of course you may have seen it already too), it talks about the "generations" of the old school master gunsmiths.
    The Evolution of the Custom Combat .45
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

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