Never even heard of it.
This is a discussion on Liberty Civil Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 50 Grain Fragmenting Hollow Point within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not looking to start another this is better then that post just looking for an intelligent conversation on the merits of this ammo. I did ...
Not looking to start another this is better then that post just looking for an intelligent conversation on the merits of this ammo. I did quit a bit a research and some of the pros make sense. With the logic that rifle bullets aren't much heavier and with the velocity claims one would think it would be more popular for SD. Anyone actually shot this round? Anyone know of it being used in a incident? Again I'm not bashing other types of ammo just looking for some input.
Never even heard of it.
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
I would look for tests conducted in calibrated ballistic gelatin. I suspect that the ultra-light bullet expands early, decelerates hard, and fails to penetrate to FBI/IWBA standards.
Kind of looks like a gimmick to me. I'll stick with my Federal HSTs.
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Sez it penetrates 12" in ballistic gel. I would be dubious of this, but if true it might be very good. I guess my worry would be whether it might suffer if going through a thick jacket or something, as in fragments too early.
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55gr. 5.56 goes 3,000+ fps
124gr. 7.62x39 goes 2,400 fps, and that is a mid power round. 7.62x54 gets into the full power .30 cal rounds.
What I'm saying is a 50gr. frangible 9mm round is unimpressive. You should be seeking penetration in a SD round, and this does not provide that. Save these for wannabe skymall cops.
Just saw a gel video. Every shot on the video was through drywall. Rounds did not appear to expand, and did penetrated 4 layers of drywall. The one gel test they did was through drywall first. It did not expand, and penetrated 12.5".
This tells me that if not penetrating your home is the goal, this ammo doesn't offer a perceivable difference. The video did not adequately address reaction directly to soft targets.
Last edited by Nmuskier; October 8th, 2013 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Did more homework.
Sure, varmint rounds in the .20 to .24 caliber range can be around 50 grains - but those are also launched at 2500 to well over 3000 ft/sec and are intended to pretty much blow up on impact, rather than penetrate (depending on bullet type). This round is in the range of a .22 Hornet, nothing you'd choose in advance for self-defense.With the logic that rifle bullets aren't much heavier and with the velocity claims one would think it would be more popular for SD
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
The Liberty Civil Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 50 Grain, are really the old "Halo" ammo that was re-branded due to the copyrighted name of "Halo".
As stated above, it does fall short of the FBI/IWBA standards, if that is your standard as well (4 layers of 14 oz denim + 16 in penetration in ballistic gel).
The .45acp 9mm, IIRC had a 6 in wide wound cavity with ~ 8 inch penetration with a velocity of 1900 fps and POI over 600 ft-lbs at 20 feet.
Prefrags will not give you penetration, but there is much to say about 600+ ft-lbs of force on impact. Stopping ability will depend on "Pain" or "Bio Wound".
Magsafe makes some light metal JHP metal non-bonded JHPs that work on the same principle and produce huge ft-lbs of POI energy.
Corbon Pow'RBall also sells a lighter lead prefrag (compressed 6 or 12 shot) inside a thinner copper jacket with a polymer ball inside the HP to avoid clogging and aiding in expansion.
These types of rounds seem better suited for use in warmer weather. They are 'SD' rounds only, but within SD range 10yards, they do deliver a LOT of energy.
I can vouch for the effectiveness of the Corbon Pow'RBall (Glazer) for SD Range as I used to try the at 20 feet when slaughtering hogs I raised. While butchering the hog, I saw the wound cavity, to the head and they were all instant 1 shot kills. I have zero doubt the would be just as effective at 30 feet.
Same with the Magsafes.
I never tried beyond 20 feet as I couldn't chance an animal suffering.
The Pow'RBalls may be a very good choice in maximizing impact energy in small .380 or other close range pocket pistols.
We were NOT allowed to use any of them in our duty sidearms, though, as a Trooper may be required to shoot at a target at longer distances with intermediate obstacles, etc. Auto glass would 'probably' negate their purpose at any range.
They could be a viable option for a woman who is older, people with severe arthritis or other reasons requiring minor recoil.
I have fired them through my G26. Super accurate for me, recoil is light to medium, obviously an intense round. Gel tests I have seen show immense temporary cavity expansion.
I carry 135 gr Critical Duty +P with on of these in the chamber and another at #5.
Thanks for all of the input VERY valid points from everyone. Was one of them things where you think out loud with your fingers. Know what I mean :)
The first vid is what got me thinking. The second longer video I never saw but has to make you go humm??? I'm not familiar with shooting bullets at vests so penetrating half the layers seems impressive but he never shot a HST at it to compare?? Either way I DO NOT want to be on the receiving end of any bullet. It just makes me wonder if the EOI might have/should some sort of "stopping/slowing" power. For lack of a better term. Again not trying to start a bullet war as my current carry round is a 115gr DPX. But it still makes you want to scratch your head. No???
I would have to agree it doesn't met FBI standards personally I use Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammunition but my biggest fear is that round going thru my target and entering my child's room or a innocent person and I think that's the point of this ammo is hit drill into your target and nothing else like you said but I saw a few videos of the ammo test with denim layers and huge chunks of meat and it worked quite well so I think it would a great choice for self and home defense personal opinion
And you always hear those guy I like to call fantasy guys (my dad is one of those guys) who say what if a 300 pound crack head who know I have been around awhile and haven't seen one yet talking about stopping power and penetration you know I think those together aren't good news for the innocent people behind the "bad guy"
Ive shot the 9mm ones. In my attempt to find any factory ammo that caused my pistol to 'hiccup'
I shot some steel plate with them. They sure did splatter fantastically. Recoil was about what a normal 115g reg pressure was, so not like some of the other +p rounds I've fired.
They worked. Id use them in a pinch or if you were trying to reduce your ccw weight.
Having said that, I still have Fed HST's loaded. I trust them most of all.