Ammo improvement over the years.

This is a discussion on Ammo improvement over the years. within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I keep seeing postings on how (insert caliber of choice here) has been improved over the years. I say, "Not really." All caliber of ammo ...

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    Distinguished Member Array oldman45's Avatar
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    Ammo improvement over the years.

    I keep seeing postings on how (insert caliber of choice here) has been improved over the years.

    I say, "Not really."

    All caliber of ammo has changed in some fashion over the years. None has any real improvement over another. The US Army is going back to the .45acp in the same grain and FMJ that was used in WWII. LEA are using the .45acp now in record numbers. I worked a while back with some guys srom the Secret Service and they each carried .45acp. (The highlight of that detail was I got my photo made with the person getting Executive Protection.)

    The difference in rounds now compared to years ago will be found in better quality powders being used and in the newer frangible projectiles.

    A few of us here will remember the Black Talon from 1991. It was said to penetrate kevlar and was a cop killer as well as a threat to drs trying to remove the bullets from shooting victims. It was rapidly pulled from the market. Now, some 20+ years later, there are several different bullets that is virtually the same. It was the name that got the ire of people. The rounds today are no better in many ways. I still have a few hundred of BT in various calibers. It stacks up well against the rounds of today in terms of velocity, impact and other comparisons.

    I also have some surplus WWII .45acp FMJ ammo. It may be a tad better than the ammo of today due to the materials used back then. It also might be a shade worse than that of today due to the materials of today. Naturally the powders of today burn differently and that gives the edge to the newer rounds.

    Overall, the bullets of today are better but that is good for all calibers and not just the (insert your choice of caliber).
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    I don't think the ammo today is any better than that of 25 years ago with the exception of bonded bullets. Some bullets actually do more damage when they fragment to a certain extent, and this is a product of velocity. Most handgun bullets today are made to meet the FBI protocol, which is an arbitrary standard in a test medium. I feel that this give people a false sense of empowerment, bullets recovered from people or game rarely look like bullets shot into gelatin.

    Momentum, muzzle energy, permanent crush cavity all play a role, however, I think we tend to obsess over these things when it is really such a small part in the big picture.
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    The .38-40 Winchester is a .40 caliber cartridge shooting .401 caliber bullets introduced by Winchester in 1874. It was very popular with law enforcement back when it was introduced. The cartridge can be loaded up to current hot 10mm velocities. Choose the largest caliber you can control with quality ammo in a gun you will carry every day.
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    Member Array ugh762x39's Avatar
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    I remember the Black Talon. Still have a box of 9mm but, I never load it up and take it out because of the issues it may bring up in court. The biggest noticeable difference is in the bullets that are pre-channelled to promote expansion. I believe that the most determining factor is bullet placement, i.e...soft tissue or direct penetration to bone.
    The only sure way to get expansion is to enlarge the hollow-point and glue in a pistol primer......but, I would never do anything like that.
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    I think the biggest advancements over the years have been in 1. Bullet construction and 2. Powders

    Those generally are something that is applied across the spectrum of modern calibers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    I remember the Black Talon. Still have a box of 9mm but, I never load it up and take it out because of the issues it may bring up in court. The biggest noticeable difference is in the bullets that are pre-channelled to promote expansion. I believe that the most determining factor is bullet placement, i.e...soft tissue or direct penetration to bone.
    The only sure way to get expansion is to enlarge the hollow-point and glue in a pistol primer......but, I would never do anything like that.
    But as you would find out, if you ever did anything like that, accuracy and velocity would be affected some. Then again, I* never had anyone that having been shot, ask me how fast the bullet that hit them was travelling or what type round it was. A few have asked what caliber gun was used on them.
    ugh762x39 likes this.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    In 50 years of shooting, I see very little improvement in ammo performance. There is a great difference in marketing, especially marketing "Hype". The same load, packaged in 4 different boxes. A pink glittery box for the ladies, a green bloody box for the zombie killers, A camo pattern box for the sidewalk commandos and black and silver professional looking box for the LEOs.

    Burger King was right "Have it your way". It is still the same burger patty and bun..just different trimmings.
    A wise man once said: "Bugout bag?..What's that? Is that all the junk you sidewalk commandos plan on humping when the SHTF...I'll grab a Nylon 66, a box of 22s and a poncho liner and in less than a week I will have all of your stuff and everything else that I need for the duration."

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    Senior Member Array flintlock62's Avatar
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    Yup, I have the Ranger SXT (same exact thing, or Supreme eXpansion Technology), and as far as I know,they're still legal. The Black Talon was never able to penetrate body armor. The alleged Teflon coating (actually Lubalox) on the bullets were supposed to perform magic feats. I think the SXT was later replaced with the PDX1, which is still the same thing, renamed again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    I remember the Black Talon. Still have a box of 9mm but, I never load it up and take it out because of the issues it may bring up in court. The biggest noticeable difference is in the bullets that are pre-channelled to promote expansion. I believe that the most determining factor is bullet placement, i.e...soft tissue or direct penetration to bone.
    The only sure way to get expansion is to enlarge the hollow-point and glue in a pistol primer......but, I would never do anything like that.
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    Not trying to make anyone mad here but I know the Army looked at replacing the M9 and different 45s were looked at, but as far as I have been told, we are staying 9mm and no replacement for the M9 is in sight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    I remember the Black Talon. Still have a box of 9mm but, I never load it up and take it out because of the issues it may bring up in court. The biggest noticeable difference is in the bullets that are pre-channelled to promote expansion. I believe that the most determining factor is bullet placement, i.e...soft tissue or direct penetration to bone.
    The only sure way to get expansion is to enlarge the hollow-point and glue in a pistol primer......but, I would never do anything like that.
    Actually, Black Talons in every caliber seem to be among the least effective for that caliber. Go Figure.

    As far as in court, please, if it is not illegal that is the least of your concerns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    I remember the Black Talon. Still have a box of 9mm but, I never load it up and take it out because of the issues it may bring up in court. The biggest noticeable difference is in the bullets that are pre-channelled to promote expansion. I believe that the most determining factor is bullet placement, i.e...soft tissue or direct penetration to bone.
    The only sure way to get expansion is to enlarge the hollow-point and glue in a pistol primer......but, I would never do anything like that.
    If you are not going to shoot those BT at any point in time or for any reason, take them to a large gun show and sell them. I have found them going, with the original box for $2 per round. I saw a watch maker pay $100 for a box of 50 in .38spl.

    I have a decent supply of them but I am not adverse to shooting them. If they need be removed from my intended target, then that is the job of the coroner and he accepted the risks that goes with the job.
    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    Member Array ugh762x39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    If you are not going to shoot those BT at any point in time or for any reason, take them to a large gun show and sell them. I have found them going, with the original box for $2 per round. I saw a watch maker pay $100 for a box of 50 in .38spl.

    I have a decent supply of them but I am not adverse to shooting them. If they need be removed from my intended target, then that is the job of the coroner and he accepted the risks that goes with the job.
    Thanks, I'll do that. There's a show the first week of Dec. in Fayetteville that I am taking my son to see.
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    Member Array ugh762x39's Avatar
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    Is Eldorado Starfire ammo still around?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugh762x39 View Post
    Is Eldorado Starfire ammo still around?
    Yep. It can still be found. Not popular but available.
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    A 9mm might expand but a .45acp never shrinks.

    "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

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    Distinguished Member Array GlassWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
    I keep seeing postings on how (insert caliber of choice here) has been improved over the years.

    I say, "Not really."

    All caliber of ammo has changed in some fashion over the years. None has any real improvement over another. The US Army is going back to the .45acp in the same grain and FMJ that was used in WWII. LEA are using the .45acp now in record numbers. I worked a while back with some guys srom the Secret Service and they each carried .45acp. (The highlight of that detail was I got my photo made with the person getting Executive Protection.)

    The difference in rounds now compared to years ago will be found in better quality powders being used and in the newer frangible projectiles.

    A few of us here will remember the Black Talon from 1991. It was said to penetrate kevlar and was a cop killer as well as a threat to drs trying to remove the bullets from shooting victims. It was rapidly pulled from the market. Now, some 20+ years later, there are several different bullets that is virtually the same. It was the name that got the ire of people. The rounds today are no better in many ways. I still have a few hundred of BT in various calibers. It stacks up well against the rounds of today in terms of velocity, impact and other comparisons.

    I also have some surplus WWII .45acp FMJ ammo. It may be a tad better than the ammo of today due to the materials used back then. It also might be a shade worse than that of today due to the materials of today. Naturally the powders of today burn differently and that gives the edge to the newer rounds.

    Overall, the bullets of today are better but that is good for all calibers and not just the (insert your choice of caliber).
    Didn't we just have this thread less than a month ago?
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