Anyone heard of "RIP" ammunition? - Page 5

Anyone heard of "RIP" ammunition?

This is a discussion on Anyone heard of "RIP" ammunition? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tony1990 I will have to take your word for it since the site would not load for me. I just now tried ...

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Thread: Anyone heard of "RIP" ammunition?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony1990 View Post
    I will have to take your word for it since the site would not load for me.

    I just now tried it again and it did load for me though it took about 30 seconds...possibly a bit less than that.
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  2. #62
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    Well I'm kinda impressed that they showed up here on the forum to defend their product. Good luck guys, I'm looking forward to seeing an FBI test, sans B93R and Glock 18.
    ZOMBIEvs42 and awoodpd13 like this.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 481 View Post

    The reference to potential energy is especially confusing since the form of mechanical energy at work in terminal ballistic penetration is kinetic energy, not potential energy. Besides using hyperbole like, "the acoustic wave that is imparted into the intended target is sent along predictable vectors", you are going to have to prove to your customers that, not only does that 'acoustic wave' exist, but that it contributes significantly to the mechanism of incapacitation (tissue damage). That's a pretty tall order and one that a researcher of minor note has been 'tilting at the windmill' for a long time with very little success.
    I've linked a paper below that provides a good argument and supporting data for the theory. Their recommendation is a round that penetrates to 12" and carries energy at impact of at least 500 ft-lb. I suppose, based on their arguments, that a controlled-fragmentation round like this could possibly achieve the desired pressure wave with the fragments while still delivering sufficient penetration with the disc, with a lower muzzle energy.

    Brings up a question, though - what is the actual muzzle energy of this round? The website says "490 muzzle energy". However, it also says a 96-grain projectile at 1265 FPS, which comes to 341 ft-lb or 464 joules.

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3051v1.pdf
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  4. #64
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    My opinion?? Its not proven, but I wouldnt write this round off. Is it to expensive for me to use much. Right now probably. Would I bet my life on it at this point watching it shot into jello? No. No more than I do any other round. Gel isnt flesh and bone, is not made up of 75 or so of water in liquid form as the human body is.

    The fear of the name is a Red Herring. I dont think anyone can provide one case ever where the name of the round used turned a SD case one way or the other. And probably few cases the name was even brought up by the prosecutor. Any smart one would not be that stupid, though possibly a few dumb ones have tried and been soundly thumped on that issue by the defenses expert witness on ammo.

    Maybe a gimmick. Maybe not. I know several that blow off the zombie rounds as a gimmick and wont use them. Even though they are the same round as Critical Defense . which a lot gleefully use, with a different casing and different colored polymer tip in the HP cavity. But for all practical purposes the exact same round.

    Useless? Maybe. or maybe not. The only way to really know is after some BGs are shot with it. JMO
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin4bus View Post
    I will be glad to provide you with a test of this round as long as you give me the parameters you wish to see it perform in. You input is greatly appreciated as we need to know your thoughts about this round so that we can give you all the facts you are looking for.

    Many Thanks,
    Thanks for coming on board Justin. I suggest that you give a box each to the big five Ammo testing channels on YouTube and let the results speak for themselves

    Brass Fetcher - YouTube

    tnoutdoors9 - YouTube

    PocketGunsandGear - YouTube

    ShootingTheBull410 - YouTube

    and Mrgunsngear Channel - YouTube
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  6. #66
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    When will these rounds be available for purchase?

    Interested in purchasing, when will they be available?

  7. #67
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    Looks like it could be promising. It does seem gimmicky though. I'd like to see it tested by people who really know their ammo. It seems like the solid part penetrates more than enough, and the fragments, while they don't penetrate extremely deep, will cause a lot of blood loss, it seems. They may bounce off bone. I wasn't an anatomy major in college, but the magic 12" standard isn't, in my opinion, an absolute must. The 12" standard was created due to shoot BG's at odd angles, through arms, etc. I'm not saying I don't prefer a 12" round. I do. Besides, the solid projectile in this "RIP" round penetrates at least that deep. But I see no need for the fragments to also go that deep. Your vital organs, on an average sized body, are not 12" deep into your body. Assuming straight on shots.

    For this to be tested adequately, it would need to be tested on pig cadavers. I think it would be quite impressive, but who knows until you test it in such a way, other than ballistics gel. Gel and a real body are two different things. Body's have difference densities between fat, muscle, organs, and bone. Anything can happen in the real world.

    I'd like to see further testing. Although, it's "scary" looking in appearance, and the name alone would be enough to have it pulled from the market.

    To think that standard hollow points are the peak of bullet performance, is silly. Time goes on, as does technology. Different bullet types will be invented. Most will fail, few will succeed. Time will tell. A few hundred, or thousand years, humans may not longer even use bullets. Has anybody seen the movies called "Star Wars?"

  8. #68
    New Member Array mgsterling's Avatar
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    Was able to purchase a single box (20 rnds) this morning at 10 a.m. Central. Order site will not allow more than one box per order.

  9. #69
    New Member Array mgsterling's Avatar
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    Purchased a box this morning.

  10. #70
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    Dixie Ammo Dump | NEW STATE OF THE ART 9MM SELF DEFENSE AMMO, COPPER seems to be selling it but $261 shipped for 100 rounds is quite a bit out of my price range, if they even allow more than 1 box to be purchased. Won't even bother mentioning what 1 box is going for on gun broker right now...

  11. #71
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    Sure, but.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Djroulette View Post
    "People involved in some kind of sport always receive big injuries that cover a lot of surface area, which need to be stitched closed. They don't die of blood loss." Generally speaking, sports do not inflict multiple channel hemorrhage wounds. If it does, it is extremely rare, whereas this round causes said damage every time a round enters the subject.

    "If you use the reasoning that they were treated before they could die of blood loss, that is a lot of time. Have you ever been to an ER and seen the wait times?" As someone who has worked in the ER, I can say that the patient with gunshot wounds does not go into the waiting room to sit with the guy with a broken arm. He is wheeled in on a gurney from the medic entrance directly into the OR; provided he is still alive.

    "Those fragments don't penetrate deep enough, will also be stopped by the rib cage and breast plate." There are videos showing this round penetrating a concrete block BEFORE fragmenting. I think it can penetrate the breastplate. considering the sternum is nothing but cartilage anyway.

    "And since the bullet lost all of its energy in so much expansion that the bullet breaks apart, the remaining 9mm size bullet won't have enough penetration." In defensive fire, limited penetration is desirable. I don't want my round going through the subject and flying rampant in other directions.

    "At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I think, and I understand that." It does matter what you think. You are obviously passionate about this subject or you would not have written such a lengthy post. At the end of the day, it is the people who take the responsibility to make sure everyone is safe who make a difference.

    "Would I want to be shot with this bullet, No." ​Neither would I.
    This is just my two cents.
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  12. #72
    481
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    I've linked a paper below that provides a good argument and supporting data for the theory. Their recommendation is a round that penetrates to 12" and carries energy at impact of at least 500 ft-lb. I suppose, based on their arguments, that a controlled-fragmentation round like this could possibly achieve the desired pressure wave with the fragments while still delivering sufficient penetration with the disc, with a lower muzzle energy.

    Brings up a question, though - what is the actual muzzle energy of this round? The website says "490 muzzle energy". However, it also says a 96-grain projectile at 1265 FPS, which comes to 341 ft-lb or 464 joules.

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3051v1.pdf
    I am already aware of that paper. Courtney's claims are well-publicized (primarily through his own efforts) and he has yet to demonstrate conclusively that the phenomena produces significant and timely effects relating to the incapacitation of a human being.

    Further, as evidenced by his statement made in the paper-

    "Other than analogies to lithotriptors and a 1947 study which did not examine neural tissue,[10] authors arguing against ballistic effects remote from the wound channel have not provided experimental evidence."
    -Courtney fails to recognize that it is his responsibility to prove his claims and not that of those asking for substantive proof of his claims. Obviously, when a legitimate researcher makes such a claim, he realizes that the burden of proof is his, not that of those who rightfully question his hypothesis.

    Your math appears to be correct and agrees with mine. The claimed kinetic energy values for this manufacturer's ammunition seem to be in error. For the weight and velocity provided on the G2R website, I get a KE of 462.4022 joules or 341.0504 ft-lbs.

    Given the manufacturer's difficulty in providing even the simplest accurate data (the KE) relating to their ammo line, I am not convinced by their marketing campaign.

    Looking at the test shots they have provided, after the tiny trocar points shear and separate from the base of the bullet producing very small needle-like permanent wound channels, all that remains is a very small disc that produces a very tiny, barely visible permanent wound channel, all of which appears to be impressive until one notices that very little tissue mass is actually destroyed by the aggregate -extremely narrow and very short- permanent wound channels depicted.

    I also have serious doubts that this ammo line will rise to meet the FBI test protocols' standards successfully -at least 12-18 inches of penetration after barriers. As noted above, the major ammo companies -Federal/ATK/Speer, Winchester, Hornady, and Remington- all produce ammunition that passes or exceeds the FBI test protocols' standards using properly calibrated 250 Type A Ordnance Gelatin.

    It is only reasonable that we should expect the same of G2Rammo in support of their claims, especially since G2Rammo states in their 'informational' video that-

    "The power, innovation, and the extreme capabilities of the RIP cartridge will revolutionize law-enforcement capabilities as well as give civilians a much needed advantage when it comes to self-defense."
    They (G2Rammo) have stated their claims and now it is up to them to prove those claims.

    I am happy to wait for the results of the evaluation vis-a-vis the FBI test protocols.

    Here's hoping that G2R doesn't drop the ball on this.
    Last edited by 481; January 25th, 2014 at 02:05 PM.
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  13. #73
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    I would think 2 COM and 1 to the head would be pretty impressive...just sayin
    That being said I betch they won't be available to the public for long. They be cop killers and stuff.

  14. #74
    481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksgunner View Post
    I would think 2 COM and 1 to the head would be pretty impressive...just sayin
    That being said I betch they won't be available to the public for long. They be cop killers and stuff.
    No, there's nothing illegal about the ammunition being produced by G2Rammo. Let's not accuse G2Rammo of violating the law when it is clear that they haven't done anything of the sort.
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  15. #75
    VIP Member Array Ksgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 481 View Post
    No, there's nothing illegal about the ammunition being produced by G2Rammo. Let's not accuse G2Rammo of violating the law when it is clear that they haven't done anything of the sort.
    No accusing anyone of anything. Just sayin they won't be leagle for long...JMHO Read a little sarcasm into my post ok?

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