G2 R.I.P is like getting shot with two .22lrs

G2 R.I.P is like getting shot with two .22lrs

This is a discussion on G2 R.I.P is like getting shot with two .22lrs within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am underwhelmed. You get just enough penetration from the trocars to rip up the pec muscles. Then you get what amounts to a light ...

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Thread: G2 R.I.P is like getting shot with two .22lrs

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    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    G2 R.I.P is like getting shot with two .22lrs



    I am underwhelmed. You get just enough penetration from the trocars to rip up the pec muscles. Then you get what amounts to a light for caliber disc that meets FBI standards. Pretty much what most of us expected.

    The title refers to the fact that the wound is easily simulated by firing a segmented CCI .22lr in to the block followed by a 60gr .22lr. The base of the rip is .355. It does not expand or deform. So you basically get a little bit of bird shot and a light FNFMJ

    G2 Research's RIP Ammo - Ballistic testing, Phase One | The Truth About Guns
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    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Obviously, that guy had a preconceived notion of what he wanted to show.
    Therefore, his results are questionable at best.

    I think the price would keep me away more than the test.
    Lately, I've seen several stories about ghetto shootings that used .22s
    and the victim is dead. I'll never poo-poo a .22. (nor recommend it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guns and more View Post
    Obviously, that guy had a preconceived notion of what he wanted to show.
    Therefore, his results are questionable at best.
    Nothing questionable about it. The test results are right there for you to see -including the calibration BB in the gel that shows it was properly calibrated. I reckon some folks just refuse to believe their lyin' eyes.

    His use of a gelatin test block that had been shot by two .22-caliber rounds gives the added perspective of how the RIP round performed. Overall, it's a very nice
    write-up.
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    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Isn't that magical!

    Seriously, it is possible to overthink some of this stuff.

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    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guns and more View Post
    Obviously, that guy had a preconceived notion of what he wanted to show.
    Therefore, his results are questionable at best.

    I think the price would keep me away more than the test.
    Lately, I've seen several stories about ghetto shootings that used .22s
    and the victim is dead. I'll never poo-poo a .22. (nor recommend it).
    The bullet claims to be magic. A double tap from a .22lr pistol will get the same result. The upside is the non-segmented bullet will actually penetrate further - and deflect less - than the base of the R.I.P round because it has more mass. There is no way I would pay $2 a round for something I could probably outperform by double tapping the bad guy with a RBCD fragmenting .32acp and a fmj.

    I guess that a 9mm that acts like two .22lr or two .32acp is kind of magical. It allow you the ability to simulate a double tap of weaker and cheaper ammo for twice the price, revolutionary.
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    There used to be binary rounds in 7.62x51 . We usedthen in field testing when the M-14 was still the primary battle rifle . Seemed to work, but when the M-16/5.56 combination came along, the binary sort of went away .
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    EN MI VIDA AL MAL NO TEMERÉ, POR QUE EN MI CORAZÓN Y MIS DOS .38 SUPER COLT.

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    481
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNice View Post
    The bullet claims to be magic. A double tap from a .22lr pistol will get the same result. The upside is the non-segmented bullet will actually penetrate further - and deflect less - than the base of the R.I.P round because it has more mass. There is no way I would pay $2 a round for something I could probably outperform by double tapping the bad guy with a RBCD fragmenting .32acp and a fmj.

    I guess that a 9mm that acts like two .22lr or two .32acp is kind of magical. It allow you the ability to simulate a double tap of weaker and cheaper ammo for twice the price, revolutionary.
    After looking at the rather uninspired performance of the G2 RIP round in STB410's ballistic gel tests, I couldn't help but notice how small the temporary cavity produced by the RIP ammo was in comparison to the temporary cavities shown in the G2 videos. One of the other things that grabbed my attention was the lack of any scalar reference in their ballistic gel tests. Noticing this, it sparked my interest since most reputable manufacturers and researchers include some form of scalar reference in their tests. Now I am pretty sure that STB410 used standard 6"x6"x16" gelatin blocks in his tests just like the FBI specifies in its test protocols, but since there is no scalar reference in the G2 videos and G2 has claimed that their ammo is designed to meet the FBI test protocols found here:

    Frequently Asked Questions | G2 Research

    According to Dr. Martin Fackler and the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), between 12.5 and 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) of penetration in calibrated tissue simulant is optimal performance for a bullet which is meant to be used defensively, against a human adversary. They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement). If the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal. The FBI's penetration requirement is very similar at 12 to 18 inches (305 to 457 mm).

    A penetration depth of 12.5 to 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) may seem excessive, but a bullet sheds velocity—and crushes a narrower hole—as it penetrates deeper, while losing velocity, so the bullet might be crushing a very small amount of tissue (simulating an "ice pick" injury) during its last two or three inches of travel, giving only between 9.5 and 12 inches of effective wide-area penetration. Also, skin is elastic and tough enough to cause a bullet to be retained in the body, even if the bullet had a relatively high velocity when it hit the skin. About 250 ft/s (76 m/s) velocity is required for an expanded hollow point bullet to puncture skin 50% of the time. So, with that said, the R.I.P. round was developed to both expand 6" in diameter and penetrate past 16".

    The IWBA's and FBI's penetration guidelines are to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital structure from most angles, while retaining enough velocity to generate a large diameter hole through tissue. An extreme example where penetration would be important is if the bullet first had to enter and then exit an outstretched arm before impacting the torso. A bullet with low penetration might embed itself in the arm whereas a higher penetrating bullet would penetrate the arm then enter the thorax where it would have a chance of hitting a vital organ. In essence , the RIP round does it all. It is a multi faceted, cleverly designed bullet that no other competitor on the planet can duplicate.
    Obviously, the question remains... "How do they get those impressive-looking temporary cavities that involve the whole test block in their videos?"

    Even though there is no measurement scale provided in any of the G2 RIP videos, all is not lost. There is one known scalar reference point that we can use to determine the dimensions of the test block that is being used in this G2 RIP video:



    That "one known scalar reference point" is the 9mm bullet prior to striking the gelatin test block from the right side of the video frame. It's diameter (or width) is 0.355", give or take a thousandth, so all that was necessary to do was to stop the video at a point prior to the 9mm bullet's impact with the gelatin block and measure its "apparent width" as it is displayed on the screen. I set my 17" computer's video display option to "full-screen" because larger measurement scales are less effected by measurement error and stopped the video with the bullet about midway across its open air flight path and prior to striking the test gelatin block. It took a little fiddlin' to freeze the video so that the bullet's image was distinct enough to clearly discern its dimensions, but once I did so, I got a pre-impact, apparent (on-screen) measurement of 0.225" for the 0.355" diameter bullet using my 6" RCBS dial caliper. Then, using the 6" RCBS dial caliper, I measured the height of the gelatin test block about 1/3rd and 2/3rds down the length of the test block where the screen image of the top and bottom of the test block was the sharpest and got an average measurement of 2.49 inches. Using these three measurements it is then possible, using a proportional relationship, to get a fairly accurate representation of the test block's actual height and length.

    Since the bullet and the gelatin test block are all within the same focal plane, we can reasonably assume that the bullet and gelatin test block are all "in scale" with one another. It then becomes a simple mathematical task of computing the height of the gelatin block from its apparent "on-screen" height. In order to do so, we first divide the actual known diameter of the 9mm bullet, 0.355", (which makes it our 'scale exemplar') by the "apparent diameter" of the 9mm bullet as shown in the video, which in this case is 0.225". That gives us an aspect ratio (the bullet's actual diameter divided by its apparent on-screen measurement) of 1.578. Then, in order to determine the actual height of the gelatin block, we need only to multiply the "apparent height" of the test gelatin block in the video, 2.49" times 1.578, which gives us an actual gelatin block height of about 3.93 inches. The length of the test block is also easily obtained by measuring it on the screen. It's apparent (on-screen) length, according to the RCBS dial caliper, is 5.75 inches, which, when multiplied by the aspect ratio of 1.578, gives us an actual gelatin block length of about 9.07 inches.

    Yeah, G2 is using 4"x4"x9" gelatin test blocks in their promotional videos. Because the 4"x4"x9" test blocks are so much smaller and there is no measurement scale present in their videos, the cavities produced appear to be much larger than they actually are because the viewer naturally assumes that since G2 has invoked the FBI test standards (including the standard 6"x6"x16" blocks) on their website, that standard FBI protocol 6"x6"x16" blocks are being used. Of course, nobody should take my word for it. Take the measurements and do the math for yourself.

    If a product that my life -and the lives of my loved ones- might depend upon needs to be "hyped-up" using such a deceptive approach, then it is something that I would avoid at all costs.

  8. #8
    Member Array glocknjeep's Avatar
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    Here's another video showing an independent test...this one portray's the bullet acting as advertised...I'm still waiting for more opinions, but man oh man the naysayers are counting this one out before there's any good data. I'll admit I'm optimistic, but as stated, I'm standing by for more data.
    FUNKERTACTICAL » Tactical Videos & Photos » R.I.P. Bullet Slow Motion testing With RatedRR

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    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocknjeep View Post
    Here's another video showing an independent test...this one portray's the bullet acting as advertised...I'm still waiting for more opinions, but man oh man the naysayers are counting this one out before there's any good data. I'll admit I'm optimistic, but as stated, I'm standing by for more data.
    FUNKERTACTICAL » Tactical Videos & Photos » R.I.P. Bullet Slow Motion testing With RatedRR
    His results are the same. There is about four inches of penetration for the "trocars" with a flat base penetrating twelve to fifteen inches. Those concrete block he sat the ballistic block on are about four inches wide. The "trocars" didn't penetrate the whole width of one block. There is nothing different here. It just shows that the bullet looks really cool in slow motion.

    Edit:
    Why is the concrete block "test" supposed to impress people? I can do the exact same thing with Hornady Critical Defense 135gr+p and Remington Golden Saber 124gr out of a Glock 26. The Remington snapped a small two inch foundation block in half after passing through about three inches of water. So, after dumping enough energy to shed the jacket, it did basically the same thing.

    The picture with the fabric softner bottle is the Golden Saber shot. The other picture is what I could recover from a Hornady Critical Duty that went through a concrete block just like the one in the video. The round impacted with enough force that the only thing recoverable was the jacket. I could not find the red tip or the lead. In both cases there was enough impact energy to push a supporting block at least two inches.

    12071280244_a32b013bc3_z.jpg
    11821715903_42fcc32b4d_z.jpg
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    481
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNice View Post
    His results are the same. There is about four inches of penetration for the "trocars" with a flat base penetrating twelve to fifteen inches. Those concrete block he sat the ballistic block on are about four inches wide. The "trocars" didn't penetrate the whole width of one block. There is nothing different here. It just shows that the bullet looks really cool in slow motion.
    Yep, nothing new with that test either. It has also been my experience that most of the premium self-defense JHPs (HSTs, PDX1s, XTPs, Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, etc) will punch through both sides of a CMU. (concrete masonry unit aka: a cinder block)

    And what is with the overly-dramatic music in this video-



    -and the videos by the manufacturer?

    Do they really feel that such a 'corny' presentation is necessary to convince everyone that their ammo is "revolutionary"?
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    Shooting The Bull 410's test is what I watched, and I already knew how the results would pan out with RIP, it's just about the same as the Liberty M4 round, which also fragments just like RIP, and then has a small disc shaped piece that penetrated further. The Liberty has been tested by tnoutdoors9, and that test proves the Liberty, just like RIP, to not be all that the marketing says it is.

    None of these tests replicate bone, and if you were to hit a rib, or an arm bone that is the way of the shot, how do you think the RIP, or Liberty M4 will perform? I don't think it will perform well at all, the bullets are very light for caliber, and that alone will hinder penetration of that tiny solid base.

    All exotic ammo is a gimmick, with marketing designed to empty your wallet of your hard earned money. You don't see LE agencies adopting any exotic ammo do you? There's a reason for that, those bullets do not work well. Look up tests of Liberty M4 and compare it to the independent RIP test, and then you will notice that RIP isn't anything new or revolutionary. Hell, the Liberty stuff came out well before RIP, but they do the exact same thing.
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    This video & our comments have previously been pounded to a fine powder by both the skeptical & the optimistic factions of our forum. As I said before, I refuse to load my EDC with ANY ammo that doesn't say "Zombie" somewhere on the packaging.
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    Member Array jkurtz7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 481 View Post
    After looking at the rather uninspired performance of the G2 RIP round in STB410's ballistic gel tests, I couldn't help but notice how small the temporary cavity produced by the RIP ammo was in comparison to the temporary cavities shown in the G2 videos. One of the other things that grabbed my attention was the lack of any scalar reference in their ballistic gel tests. Noticing this, it sparked my interest since most reputable manufacturers and researchers include some form of scalar reference in their tests. Now I am pretty sure that STB410 used standard 6"x6"x16" gelatin blocks in his tests just like the FBI specifies in its test protocols, but since there is no scalar reference in the G2 videos and G2 has claimed that their ammo is designed to meet the FBI test protocols found here:

    Frequently Asked Questions | G2 Research



    Obviously, the question remains... "How do they get those impressive-looking temporary cavities that involve the whole test block in their videos?"

    Even though there is no measurement scale provided in any of the G2 RIP videos, all is not lost. There is one known scalar reference point that we can use to determine the dimensions of the test block that is being used in this G2 RIP video:



    That "one known scalar reference point" is the 9mm bullet prior to striking the gelatin test block from the right side of the video frame. It's diameter (or width) is 0.355", give or take a thousandth, so all that was necessary to do was to stop the video at a point prior to the 9mm bullet's impact with the gelatin block and measure its "apparent width" as it is displayed on the screen. I set my 17" computer's video display option to "full-screen" because larger measurement scales are less effected by measurement error and stopped the video with the bullet about midway across its open air flight path and prior to striking the test gelatin block. It took a little fiddlin' to freeze the video so that the bullet's image was distinct enough to clearly discern its dimensions, but once I did so, I got a pre-impact, apparent (on-screen) measurement of 0.225" for the 0.355" diameter bullet using my 6" RCBS dial caliper. Then, using the 6" RCBS dial caliper, I measured the height of the gelatin test block about 1/3rd and 2/3rds down the length of the test block where the screen image of the top and bottom of the test block was the sharpest and got an average measurement of 2.49 inches. Using these three measurements it is then possible, using a proportional relationship, to get a fairly accurate representation of the test block's actual height and length.

    Since the bullet and the gelatin test block are all within the same focal plane, we can reasonably assume that the bullet and gelatin test block are all "in scale" with one another. It then becomes a simple mathematical task of computing the height of the gelatin block from its apparent "on-screen" height. In order to do so, we first divide the actual known diameter of the 9mm bullet, 0.355", (which makes it our 'scale exemplar') by the "apparent diameter" of the 9mm bullet as shown in the video, which in this case is 0.225". That gives us an aspect ratio (the bullet's actual diameter divided by its apparent on-screen measurement) of 1.578. Then, in order to determine the actual height of the gelatin block, we need only to multiply the "apparent height" of the test gelatin block in the video, 2.49" times 1.578, which gives us an actual gelatin block height of about 3.93 inches. The length of the test block is also easily obtained by measuring it on the screen. It's apparent (on-screen) length, according to the RCBS dial caliper, is 5.75 inches, which, when multiplied by the aspect ratio of 1.578, gives us an actual gelatin block length of about 9.07 inches.

    Yeah, G2 is using 4"x4"x9" gelatin test blocks in their promotional videos. Because the 4"x4"x9" test blocks are so much smaller and there is no measurement scale present in their videos, the cavities produced appear to be much larger than they actually are because the viewer naturally assumes that since G2 has invoked the FBI test standards (including the standard 6"x6"x16" blocks) on their website, that standard FBI protocol 6"x6"x16" blocks are being used. Of course, nobody should take my word for it. Take the measurements and do the math for yourself.

    If a product that my life -and the lives of my loved ones- might depend upon needs to be "hyped-up" using such a deceptive approach, then it is something that I would avoid at all costs.
    I figured that the gel blocks used in RIP's own marketing propaganda, I mean test, were smaller than standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkurtz7 View Post
    I figured that the gel blocks used in RIP's own marketing propaganda, I mean test, were smaller than standard.
    The G2R ad campaign's use of unsophisticated misdirection is more than a little troubling. If their product line is so darned "revolutionary", why is there the need to slant the tests and reported KE numbers in their favor?

    So far on the G2Rammo website, they've quoted the kinetic energy of their ammunition as being higher that it actually is and concurrently failed to provide a proper unitary reference for those KE figures. Then, when their kinetic energy figures were questioned -and rightly so- the numbers were revised downward a little closer to where they should be -although they are still incorrect- and still there is no unitary reference to those KE numbers. KE is usually expressed in foot-pounds or joules, but no such distinction is made on their 'site. As of this post, they've removed all reference to KE from the home page of their website.

    Now, it has been shown that they have used smaller than standard size gelatin blocks in their test videos which has the arguable effect of creating a more favorable, but inaccurate, perception of their product's performance.

    While I would like to believe that this has been nothing more than a series of unfortunate events, the fact that these "errors" always occur in favor of their product seems to suggest that some sort of manipulation of the facts is occurring. I am all for new and innovative self-defense ammunition designs that keeps "me and mine" safer, but when this sort of thing occurs, it is almost always ferreted out, and in the long-run serves only to make it more difficult for the next entrepreneur who wants to offer a new and truly innovative ammunition design.
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    Remember this?

    E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.
    This was the last "Last Round You'll Ever Need," the Extreme Shock Tungsten-NyTrilium™ Composite bullet. Never mind that there is no tungsten in the round, that there is no such thing as NyTrilium, there is no such thing as "density mass," and that the round is just a plastic ball filling up space behind a really light lead bullet. Will RIP ammo end up being the same (i.e. a complete load of horse manure buried under a bunch of made up words and made up "tests?") - I don't know. But I am VERY leery of any manufacturer, vendor, or anyone else who uses pseudo-scientific sounding (and completely meaningless) verbiage to hype their products. If they're good, they will sell themselves. If they're BS, you get expanding rotational cones of trocar geometry....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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