The infamous cop killer bullet also known as the Winchester Black Talon

The infamous cop killer bullet also known as the Winchester Black Talon

This is a discussion on The infamous cop killer bullet also known as the Winchester Black Talon within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was lucky enough to get my hands on some Black Talon 9mm last week. Instead of just running a normal ballistic gelatin test, I ...

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Thread: The infamous cop killer bullet also known as the Winchester Black Talon

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    Member Array usmc9688's Avatar
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    The infamous cop killer bullet also known as the Winchester Black Talon

    I was lucky enough to get my hands on some Black Talon 9mm last week. Instead of just running a normal ballistic gelatin test,
    I wanted to take the time to disprove some of the ridiculous claims I have heard about this ammo.


    For those that aren't aware the Winchester Black Talon was released in 1991. It was designed for barrier penetration and superior expansion.
    Overall it was an okay round. It was taken off the shelves in 1993 voluntarily by Winchester.


    Unfortunately a man named Colin Ferguson used the ammo in a mass shooting back in 1993. This led the media to start a massive campaign against the so-called "cop killer bullet".
    Politicians and news anchors took it upon themselves to inform the public of this new baby killing, armor piercing, village pillaging ammunition. A slew of
    completely crazy claims and lawsuits arose, so I decided to put the Black Talon to the test.
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    "...Politicians and news anchors took it upon themselves to inform the public of this new baby killing, armor piercing, village pillaging ammunition."
    Such a bunch of idiots...

    Is this the stuff that requires a special mag-clip?
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    I still have a couple of boxes of the stuff. I'll take my gold dots over them any day (or I'd run SXT I guess). But I still love the way they look. I wish somebody would make pretty rounds these days.
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    Also used in the 101 street shooting in CA ... Idiots used a tec 9 with black talons.. But coroner then said there was nothing special about the rounds in that shooting ..


    That said a guy local to me had a bunch of the stuff still in boxs for sale in 9 and other calibers ... Might pick up some just for giggles ... What is funny is the rifle round for this is still made the same way with black tip etc as it was back then I think they have 30-06 etc ..

    Also I have found that most non made to penetrate armor but will bullets will at most go through the old 2 and 2a vest ( ala the ones from the 90s ) ... 3 and up is the heaviest you can get that is still concealble ... It will stop anything short of rifle rifle or a handful of special handgun rounds ...

    That said I only know of one or two HP rounds out there that can breech body armor .. All of them are very very hot loaded +P+ stuff .. But still only go threw a level 2 or so vest ... Hp are the worst round to use on body armor ... Ball ammo the hotter the better is more effective (or a thrusting sword or a crossbow or icepick..) ... Which is why I always laugh about the whole BT AP thing ..


    For me ammo is only truly " evil " if it was banned from either import or being made again .. That is nasty stuff .. Some of the old steel core handgun ammo ( that in most case will go through most anything ) and the super hot +P+++ stuff ... Now that is a hote esp if you have a rifle to fire it in .. Nothing like a uzi or hk94 loading with +P++ Austrian ammo


    Great video by the way! did not think the bullet would do that baldly ... I think it was just a issue of a too cool name and media hype ...

    And also two idots messing it up for the rest of us..

    Great video thanks again
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    Member Array usmc9688's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RETSUPT99 View Post
    "...Politicians and news anchors took it upon themselves to inform the public of this new baby killing, armor piercing, village pillaging ammunition."
    Such a bunch of idiots...

    Is this the stuff that requires a special mag-clip?
    Yup better make sure its a 30 caliber clip with the shoulder thing that goes up. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    I still have a couple of boxes of the stuff. I'll take my gold dots over them any day (or I'd run SXT I guess). But I still love the way they look. I wish somebody would make pretty rounds these days.
    They do look quite snazzy. Gold dots perform quite well. I've only had the chance to test the 223, but I hoping to try the 9mm soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongRecroom View Post
    Also used in the 101 street shooting in CA ... Idiots used a tec 9 with black talons.. But coroner then said there was nothing special about the rounds in that shooting ..


    That said a guy local to me had a bunch of the stuff still in boxs for sale in 9 and other calibers ... Might pick up some just for giggles ... What is funny is the rifle round for this is still made the same way with black tip etc as it was back then I think they have 30-06 etc ..

    Also I have found that most non made to penetrate armor but will bullets will at most go through the old 2 and 2a vest ( ala the ones from the 90s ) ... 3 and up is the heaviest you can get that is still concealble ... It will stop anything short of rifle rifle or a handful of special handgun rounds ...

    That said I only know of one or two HP rounds out there that can breech body armor .. All of them are very very hot loaded +P+ stuff .. But still only go threw a level 2 or so vest ... Hp are the worst round to use on body armor ... Ball ammo the hotter the better is more effective (or a thrusting sword or a crossbow or icepick..) ... Which is why I always laugh about the whole BT AP thing ..


    For me ammo is only truly " evil " if it was banned from either import or being made again .. That is nasty stuff .. Some of the old steel core handgun ammo ( that in most case will go through most anything ) and the super hot +P+++ stuff ... Now that is a hote esp if you have a rifle to fire it in .. Nothing like a uzi or hk94 loading with +P++ Austrian ammo


    Great video by the way! did not think the bullet would do that baldly ... I think it was just a issue of a too cool name and media hype ...

    And also two idots messing it up for the rest of us..

    Great video thanks again
    I agree. It's pathetic that people will believe whatever the tv throws at them. I'd love to get my hands on some of that AP stuff, but unfortunately CA isn't too keen on AP handgun ammo. Thanks I'll keep the videos coming! :)

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    I've still got a box of the originals in 10mm sitting on the shelf in my reloading room.

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    I have two .45 ACP rounds left from my last box. They top off the mags for my P220.
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmc9688 View Post
    Yup better make sure its a 30 caliber clip with the shoulder thing that goes up. ;)



    They do look quite snazzy. Gold dots perform quite well. I've only had the chance to test the 223, but I hoping to try the 9mm soon!



    I agree. It's pathetic that people will believe whatever the tv throws at them. I'd love to get my hands on some of that AP stuff, but unfortunately CA isn't too keen on AP handgun ammo. Thanks I'll keep the videos coming! :)

    Yeah it was in CA that the 101 street shooting happen lead to a lot of the gun control there ... What is funny if you do not know is that in San Fran black talons are banned by name to own ( just black talons ..I think they were trying to ban HP ammo but only got that )..

    I am not sure the law on AP ammo in CA but some was never consider it but it is .. I am talking here of hirtenberger soft point ammo and the like ... Old Austrian glock ammo.. I would be interesting to see what it can do as it is +p + ammo and was made to penetrated windscreens .. The l1a1 stuff is also made by them but never shoot that in a handgun ..

    I dont think it was ever formerly called AP ammo and banned as such..

    So does CA banned AP ammo fully or only API ... ?

    Also for I think fun test would be to compare black talon to sxt to pdx1 to maybe that new con bor stuff all about the same idea ..

    Also here is that ammo I was wondering about HIRTENBERGER 9MM LE AMMO : Pistol Ammunition at GunBroker.com
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    Interesting timing on this. I just shot some Black Talon last Thursday to test out my new S&W Shield. I have several rounds of various older makes, and BT is one of them.
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    I have two boxes of the BT and just under 2000 rounds of the 9MM Ranger T 127Gr +P+ ammo. It shoots really well, but do not have a way to do a water jug test. We sold our property in Mississippi 10 years ago where I had a range.
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    IMO Super Vels in the 60s and 70s were the best ammo.

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    Hmmmm.... The winchester PDX1 looks strikingly similar to the BT, minus the pretty black bullet..... I like my winchester PDX1 ammo too... it feedless very smoothly in everything I put in.
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    But, it's black!? Black means its tactical, and that makes me an operator if I use black gear.

    Gotta have some! It will match my tactical black pants, hat, glasses, boots, gloves, moly gear, pen, wallet, coffee mug, pancakes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmuskier View Post
    But, it's black!? Black means its tactical, and that makes me an operator if I use black gear.

    Gotta have some! It will match my tactical black pants, hat, glasses, boots, gloves, moly gear, pen, wallet, coffee mug, pancakes...
    Dude! Where did you get the black pancakes? I've been looking fo those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurahe View Post
    Hmmmm.... The winchester PDX1 looks strikingly similar to the BT, minus the pretty black bullet..... I like my winchester PDX1 ammo too... it feedless very smoothly in everything I put in.
    They look a lot like Win Ranger as well.
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