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Interesting .380 ballistics test

27K views 115 replies 45 participants last post by  Happypuppy 
#1 ·
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#2 ·
NO! It will go straight through. Look up ammoquest on youtube by shootingthebull410. He does comprehensive clear gel and denim with organic gel testing on all the top SD .380 ammo's available. Watch what happens when they don't expand.
 
#10 ·
This is so. Basically the Hornady XTP bullet (used by multiple manufacturers) is designed right - it reliably expands in gel to about 0.45, even after layers of denim, and penetrates to around 14". This is probably the best performance .380 is capable of. The thing to avoid is ammo that expands TOO much, like Hornady Critical Defense with their FTX bullet and Remington Golden Saber, which expand to about 0.53 and .63 respectively, and only penetrate about 8" in bare gelatin. (This was out of a Taurus TCP.). It seems the caliber just doesn't have the energy to drive a wide expanded bullet.

Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull
 
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#15 ·
^
Me too.
Me three.

And I think others here have 9x18 and 9x19 confused, as far as the performance of a ball round goes.

I have severe doubts as to a .380's ability to pass through bone, pass through the body, possibly pass through bone again, and then penetrate the exiting side skin, and finally the clothing, and still having enough energy to be dangerous.

Sorry; I just don't see that low velocity, lightweight bullet that quite likely has been yawing in it's travels doing that.
 
#6 ·
Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

But I do agree somewhat, I will be looking for a +p JHP most likely after watching this.

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#7 ·
The rule Chad mentions above still applies, even when one is under assault. The liability isn't mitigated either the emergency situation or by a hollow point. Strangely enough, the terminal ballistic performance of bullets aren't as predictable as most folks seem to desire them to be and the bullets don't behave nearly as uniformly as represented in print or in forum thread. The hollow point that still gets through, whether because it doesn't open up or else despite its opening up, still has a lawyer attached to it. Never ever feel smug or even certain about hollow point performance.

I want penetration above all with the .380 and I will have penetration.

 
#11 ·
On occasion, there is a PPK strapped to my ankle. When this occurs, there is ball ammo in the mag. Some of the most "raved" about 9mm and .380 defensive rounds perform like ball ammo after going through denim or drywall. Show me a ballistics gel test, with a .380 passing through a cow rib and then penetrating another 12 inches and I will become a believer. A small, 90gr. bullet "will" lose too much energy should it strike bone. I prefer reliability over questionable expansion. Especially with the diminutive .380.
 
#12 ·
don't own a .380, however I would think that a good, full power load in JHP ought to be able to do the job. You want your round to stop IN the target, dumping all of its kinetic energy into your attacker, not go straight through him.

Although I would not call a .380 diminutive; it has the same bullet diameter as a 9mm, .002" smaller than a .357 Magnum.. and only 2mm shorter than a 9mm Luger.. its not a massive round, in any dimension, but I'd hesitate to call it diminutive.

I think the other factor at play here is what feeds and fires reliably in your specific pistol, so I don't think a solid YES or NO vote either way is definitive or the end all be all for whether you should carry JHP or FMJ in this caliber.. in smaller calibers, such as 32acp, 25acp, and 22lr, you can absolutely make a definitive statement and decision.. I feel that is not so with .380.
 
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#26 ·
You want your round to stop IN the target, dumping all of its kinetic energy into your attacker, not go straight through him.
Bullets do not wound by "dumping energy" into tissue. Bullets wound by crushing and cutting tissue that comes into direct contact with the leading edge of the bullet. No magic energy dump, no hydro or hyper static shock. The energy used in expanding the bullet and penetrating the tissue is what counts no magic energy dump.
 
#13 ·
Since a .380 is so weak shooting someone with a .380 will only piss them off why worry about over penetration. You can't hurt a bystander unless you hit them in the eye.





BTW, I carry a .380 pocket pistol everyday with Hornady Critical Defense JHP. If I ever need it I'm sure I could change an attackers attitude.
 
#14 ·
IMHO I have no problem with FMJ in a .380, I did some informal testing on my own an use several major manufactureres the starfire jhps did a really nice job going through 4 layers denium I think might have been two layers was awhile ago an went through two jugs of water stopped in third all expanded good enough for me. Plus they fed really well.
 
#16 ·
want your round to stop IN the target, dumping all of its kinetic energy into your attacker, not go straight through him.
Again, this is incorrect. This would require either a specific load for each size target, for the amount of cover clothing, distance, etc, and the corresponding volumes of test data, or this would require an anemic load that would barely penetrate most targets. The other side of this fallacy ignores the tissue disruption of a fast projectile entering soft tissue. It assumes that the energy transfer is linear, which it is not. Finally, the threat is not stopped by the shock of a foreign object entering their body. The bullet should punch through the maximum volume of tissue. A through and through hit will let out more blood.
 
#17 ·
With a 380 go with a flat nose jacket round. The round is a bit light for your ninja hollow points and magic bullets.
simple the 380 will do the job just fine at reasonable SD ranges. anyone that say different is confused.
380 21 feet steel house door and 7/16 play wood . BG will stop.
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#18 ·
From what I've read (because I've never done my own tests or anything so take it for what it is) the reason for using JHP as opposed to using FMJ is expansion and wound channel.

The old line of thinking was the .380 JHP didn't expand reliably so you really just ended up with a more expensive FMJ that didn't penetrate as far as an FMJ. But with new technology and more reliable expanding bullets the JHP is now the better choice. Again, I'm just parroting what I've heard so if I'm way off please correct me.

Personally I feel the .380 is a bit too much compromise for me, especially given all the new micro 9mm out there now. The perceived recoil from 9mm and .380, to me, is so minimal it just seems silly to go with .380 in the first place. But this isn't a caliber war so I'll leave it at that.
 
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#19 ·
There's a ballistics test on youtube by DocTacDad that made me re-think my position on the .380. Not that I would go out and buy one, but good information. I don't want to put it up here because it's kind of graphic ('Hogs Head Test') but you can find it on youtube, or I can send a link if someone wants it. But the round he tested was really impressive.
 
#20 ·
I am more concerned with under penetration than over penetration. I carry Flatnose FMJ rounds in a .380 when I carry a .380

Usually I carry a .357 Magnum
 
#28 ·
All credit to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammunition for this and I do agree with it.

The 380 auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it. HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 380 auto suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and played with nearly all of the existing available 380 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, insane, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.

Here's the problem.
The current 380 auto frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks serious penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face with modern frangible 380 ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek and send a few teeth down my throat, I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the shock and pain as that frangible bullet would have stopped some where inside my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible 380 ammo and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and wont know that half his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So whatever 380 ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 380 is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down spontaneously. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your family is to shut down the attacker instantly. So, we've designed a few 380 auto standard pressure loads to keep you and your loved ones alive under the worst of scenarios.
 
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#29 ·
Considering IOS show that +- 85% of your shots will miss the target what does it matter if you load the first round with an HP and the rest with fmj. Chances are the first round will miss, and mixing ammo type is just one more variable that might cause a failure to feed.
 
#31 ·
Underwood is loading the 102 grain Remington Golden Saber .380 in a plus p loading. I am thinking it could be what we are looking for. I wish someone would test this loading. The original Remington version fails to expand in gel testing.


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#32 ·
I would never shoot any ammo from companies that feel the need to over load ammo to get higher velocities. Underwood, Buffalo Bore to name a few. If I need higher velocities from my .380 I'll go to a 9mm if I need higher velocities from my .40 I'll go to a 10mm.
 
#34 ·
So attacker please wait a minute I loaded up today expecting a 180lb male in a light shirt instead you showed up 280 pounds in a heavy coat so I have to run out and reload.
This stuff would be funny if it was not so sad. Working on hitting your target quickly with what you have.
Loading up with super expending hi power ninja 2 zombie killers extremes will not help.
 
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#40 ·
"Pretty sure" doesn't cut it for me. I need to see proof that they are not loading beyond max. There's a thread on here about .40 KB and one of the posts was this guy using underwood ammo. The thing was the OP said he measured the rounds and that they were to SAAMI spec. SAAMI spec is presure not dimensions. There is no way to tell what they are loaded to unless you have all the equipment needed to test pressure.

Again why push a round beyond what is normal? Just get the next caliber up. Want super speed 9mm get a sig. There is no need to push rounds beyond their design just to get 100 or 200 fps extra. Modern roundsin 9mm, .40 and .45 perform just fine at normal velocities, those extra fps are doing nothing to improve terminal performance and in some cases actually do the opposite.

Quality HPs designed to expand optimally, let's say 9mm at 850-1000 fps for a 147gr 9mm. The cavity and structure of the bullet is designed to expand at this velocity window. If pushed beyond the window it will expand to the point of having it petals curl back and end smaller in diameter if pushed to 1200 fps. KE means nothing if the round does not penetrate deep enough and expand as much as possible. KE energy dump and the myth of "expending all the energy on target" is just that a myth. Where the hole is located and how deep and how big the hole is is what counts not how much energy the bullet had.
 
#43 ·
Let me rephrase that. I am sure that Underwood and Buffalo Bore are loading to safe specifications. Most of your modern firearms in 9mm can handle up to Nato specs and from what I have read on this forum from people who have a lot more knowledge than I do. If the gun can handle +P why would you not use it for a SD round?

As far as why because you can shoot regular 9mm a lot cheaper than you can shoot 40 S+W and 357 Sig and then use the +P for SD ammo.
 
#45 ·
I think ideally if I had to carry a .380 ACP, it would have a JHP bullet designed for relatively limited expansion. A round-nose FMJ .380 ACP is perfectly capable of overpenetration due to lack of bullet deformation and bullet shape, which also mean it does relatively little damage. But .380 ACP JHPs tend not to get ideal penetration. I think if you had one that was designed to upset to, say .40" or so, you might find a good balance between penetration and expansion for the caliber.
 
#48 ·
If you look at the ballistics Buffalo Bore .40+P in 155 gr is the same as Underwood SP .40 in 155 grain. I don't buy Buffalo Bore because I think it is too pricey compared to Underwood but a lot of people use it and like it. Is it a marketing scam calling it +P? Yes it is but that does not make it unsafe.

If you choose not to use hotter loads in your fire arms that is fine but it is still safe to do so.
 
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