Winchester Train & Defend.

This is a discussion on Winchester Train & Defend. within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a new offering I read about in Handguns magazine It is practice ammo paired up with SD ammo... In the article they tested ...

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Thread: Winchester Train & Defend.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Buckeye63's Avatar
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    Winchester Train & Defend.

    This is a new offering I read about in Handguns magazine
    It is practice ammo paired up with SD ammo...
    In the article they tested velocity and accuracy of the 130gr ammo
    The practice ammo is a fnfmj and the SD ammo is a wide deep HP
    both at 130 grs and both same velocity ..
    Listed velocity is 900 fps but out of a 4inch barreled revolver only produced 757 fps...
    I can only image out of a 2inch barrel,

    I'm sorta suprised with the lack luster performance..
    No gel test was done to test the SD ammo...if this round penetrates and expands I would be shocked

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  3. #2
    Member Array YankeeDefense's Avatar
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    The train and defend uses PDX1 bullets, which are exceptional. The train and defend series was designed to provide low recoil options for people. The low velocity could be the result of a lot of variables. Slow barrel, altitude, temperature, chrono was off, etc.

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    Senior Member Array Buckeye63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeDefense View Post
    The train and defend uses PDX1 bullets, which are exceptional. The train and defend series was designed to provide low recoil options for people. The low velocity could be the result of a lot of variables. Slow barrel, altitude, temperature, chrono was off, etc.


    The PDX1 38 Spl. +P fails to expand..in Sim test so I truly doubt that it will expand at significantly slower velocity

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    Senior Member Array Buckeye63's Avatar
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    My favorite option for standard pressure low recoil ammo is 148gr LWC...even though the LWC will not expand it will penetrate and the blunt sharp edges will cause a permanent wound channel and the low recoil will enable fast accurate follow up shots..

    Seems like the PDX1 will act alot like a FMJ

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    Member Array YankeeDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckeye63 View Post
    My favorite option for standard pressure low recoil ammo is 148gr LWC...even though the LWC will not expand it will penetrate and the blunt sharp edges will cause a permanent wound channel and the low recoil will enable fast accurate follow up shots..

    Seems like the PDX1 will act alot like a FMJ
    With the short barrel revolver the velocity is most certainly the culprit. The PDX1 is still a good bullet across the line up, just not when loaded for .38 Special! However, you really never know how any bullet will react in a real world environment.

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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    Interesting. I have the Defend in my j-frame, so I'll have to search for that article. I have to wonder what revolver they used for it.

    For what it's worth, Winchester did some demo gel tests with denim at SHOT Show, and it seemed to do okay.

    New Self Defense Ammunition From Winchester - Train and Defend

    Out of an LCR, they say 12" of penetration (2:58).

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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    The fmj is subsonic if you have need that for silencer shooting .....but this stuff does not run in a lot of guns due to round shap... I know in my sub 2000 it would not feed and at least one of my handguns...

    But for the stuff it did run in I like it... Clean ammo as I rember ...


    This would be nice for indoor shooting me thinks

    No ideas on the hp though
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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Just picked up a box of the training rounds for my .40 cal Glocks. Only because it was the cheapest name brand ammo available. Will let you know how it does....
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    Member Array Rugeroo357's Avatar
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    The local gun range had a display case of this at the front counter last time I was there. I can imagine a casual shooter buying a box each of the train and defend ammo, shooting the 20 rounds (or how much is in each box) of the "train" ammo and just loading their magazines/cylinder with the "defend" rounds without testing for reliability etc. and calling it a day. LOL!

    But hey, the box is pretty and I bet it sells well. For me, it's really just a novelty marketing gimmick and I would never consider buying it. It's disconcerting to see such low velocities from that test, but that's just one test and it does seem unusually low. Like others have said, the PDX1 loads in .38 special don't do so hot from a snub nose barrel but in other calibers/barrel lengths it does great. OP, in short, I wouldn't waste my time with this new series from Winchester and would instead seek out the PDX1 rounds that are proven through testing to perform well, and just buy those instead of wondering if the "Train and Defend" versions are loaded to the same velocity as standard PDX1s.

    I carry Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain .38 special +Ps in my S&W 642 for defense. Now THAT is a load that works very well from snubbies!

  11. #10
    Member Array Tony617's Avatar
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    I picked a couple of boxes the 9mm Winchester T rounds from Cabela's for training and they are 147gr FMJ rounds. They fire quit well from my FNX-9.

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    Member Array JohnHancock's Avatar
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    If you want "train and defend" for your 38 special, go with Speer Lawman 158 gr. and Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. short barrel. These rounds were developed for LE in just this capacity long before it became a Winchester marketing gimmick. The felt recoil is almost identical between the two based on Speer's ballistics tests.

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    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    I picked up a case of the 9mm version of the practice ammo from SGAmmo earlier this spring for a (at the time) decent price. It'll be interesting to see how it performs out of my two small 9's.
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