Firing a .223 through a Mosin Nagant ballistic test

Firing a .223 through a Mosin Nagant ballistic test

This is a discussion on Firing a .223 through a Mosin Nagant ballistic test within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A few weeks ago I asked what ballistic gelatin tests everyone wanted to see. The majority of the people wanted to see a .223 fired ...

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Thread: Firing a .223 through a Mosin Nagant ballistic test

  1. #1
    Member Array usmc9688's Avatar
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    Cool Firing a .223 through a Mosin Nagant ballistic test

    A few weeks ago I asked what ballistic gelatin tests everyone wanted to see. The majority of the people wanted to see a .223 fired through a Mosin Nagant. Before that thread I had never heard of a sabot .223, but it made a hell of a test.


    What's a sabot .223 and how do you make it?

    A sabot is "a device used in a firearm or cannon to fire a projectile, such as a bullet, that is smaller than the bore diameter, or which must be held in a precise position." (Wikipedia). We made ours by pulling the bullets out of old surplus 7.62x54r ammunition and replacing the projectile with a .223 wrapped in a sabot. We kept the same amount of powder in each casing in order to keep the velocities up. We couldn't find reputable load data, but what we did find said that round would be traveling at least 4,000 fps. At these speeds we would get an incredible amount of energy.

    How much energy?

    4,000 feet per second, or Mach 3.58 would give us a tremendous amount of kinetic energy as calculated below. A sabot .223 fired out a Mosin Nagant has roughly 51% more kinetic energy than a standard 55gr .223 FMJ.

    55gr .223 sabot
    Ke = 1/2mv2
    Ke(sabot) = 1/2(55gr or 0.00356kg)(4000f/s or 1219.2m/s)2
    Ke(sabot) = 2645.87 Joules

    55gr .223 no sabot
    Ke = 1/2mv2
    Ke(no sabot) = 1/2(55gr or0.00356kr)(3240f/s or 990m/s)2
    Ke(no sabot) = 1744.57 Joules

    Results
    We were a bit worried that the rounds would explode inside of the rifle. Our data suggests that we were dealing with pressures ranging from 38,000-40,000PSI. Luckily the rounds fired without issue. We tested two rounds the SP and the FMJ both 55gr.

    FMJ Results
    Total Penetration: 13in
    Temporary Cavity: ~12in
    Largest Permanent Cavity: 3.25in

    SP Results
    Total Penetration: 14in
    Temporary Cavity: ~12in
    Largest Permanent Cavity: 3in



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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Shame you did that point blank. The gas entering the block is going to contaminate your results. Not sure you can draw any conclusions from those tests at all. Plus the sabot might not have peeled off the bullet until it was already in the block.

    ???
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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I remember sabot 30-06. Accelerators they were called.
    And someone used to make a doohickey thing that allowed you to shoot .32 acp through MN's...
    Just sayin'. For no particular reason.
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    Member Array Rugeroo357's Avatar
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    Pretty gnarly!

    It's alot like the SLAP rounds for the 7.62x51mm NATO... only more GHETTO!!! :D!
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    Not sure what a range of six inches proved. Most of the damage was probably muzzle blast. And using the same powder load shouldn't have been a concern at all.
    I tried a box of the .30-06 Accelerators way back when and the accuracy wasn't as good as a simple 130 grain HP, and the explosion of a 130 HP on a rock chuck was spectacular. The 55 grainers just didn't work well enough to spend more money on. I wonder were he got the sabots.
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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I agree, OV. The accuracy wasn't there. I bought one box and called it a day.
    I thought they were outlawed for some reason or something... but that was a while ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAcanis View Post
    I agree, OV. The accuracy wasn't there. I bought one box and called it a day.
    I thought they were outlawed for some reason or something... but that was a while ago.
    I was told they were outlawed because there would be no rifling on the bullet for forensics and the sabot pretty much disentigrated upon firing. May be myth, but that the story I got.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    That certainly makes sense.

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    55gr .223 sabot
    Ke = 1/2mv2
    Ke(sabot) = 1/2(55gr or 0.00356kg)(4000f/s or 1219.2m/s)2
    Ke(sabot) = 2645.87 Joules = 1951.51 Lb/Ft

    55gr .223 no sabot
    Ke = 1/2mv2
    Ke(no sabot) = 1/2(55gr or0.00356kr)(3240f/s or 990m/s)2
    Ke(no sabot) = 1744.57 Joules = 1286.74 Lb/Ft
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
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    Member Array usmc9688's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    55gr .223 sabot
    Ke = 1/2mv2
    Ke(sabot) = 1/2(55gr or 0.00356kg)(4000f/s or 1219.2m/s)2
    Ke(sabot) = 2645.87 Joules = 1951.51 Lb/Ft

    55gr .223 no sabot
    Ke = 1/2mv2
    Ke(no sabot) = 1/2(55gr or0.00356kr)(3240f/s or 990m/s)2
    Ke(no sabot) = 1744.57 Joules = 1286.74 Lb/Ft

    I forgot to include the freedom units.
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    Member Array Exsimguy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmc9688 View Post
    I forgot to include the freedom units.
    Using the slow powder from the original load most likely did not generate 4000fps. Without chrono data the rest of the numbers are conjecture. The penetration/cavity numbers, particularly at near muzzle would support the lack of velocity, as well. Also if you used .308 sabots, they were small for the bore of the Nagant, again, less pressure, less velocity.

    Chrono them, and update us with the results.

    Terry

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    Member Array Mark_in_wi's Avatar
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    I've always heard they are not the most accurate and that's why they are not big sellers. You can still buy the sabots to hand load:
    Sabots, sabot, sabot slugs, sabot rounds, sabot ammo, sabot reloading, sabot results, sabot pictures, sabot ammunition, sabot ammo, sabot starter kit, sabot projectile, sabot bullets, shooting reloading, hunting reloading, reloading components, reloa and Sabot Reloading Information
    I've never used or shot these but I just did a quick search. I thought this idea would be fun to play with but haven't tried yet. I've read other places that accuracy is only so so most of the time. If I remember right they worked out to about 100 yards (or more) depending on the gun/load combination.

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    Distinguished Member Array dangerranger's Avatar
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    I tried sabots too. it wasn't that they were not accurate they were just not varmint accurate! They promised varmint grade accuracy from any hunting rifle. What you ended up with was Ho Hum accuracy. still accurate enough to hit a gel block at 10 yds. And Ive never heard of any of them blowing up rifles! How about another test using load data from the sabot manufacture, and at normal test distances. DR

  14. #14
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    I tried the 30/06 Accelerator loads also using a Parker Hale 1200. With 150gr handloads this rifle consistently shot 3/8 to inch groups at 100 yards, with the accelerator I was lucky to get 5-inch groups at 100 yards.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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