FBI writeup on use of 9mm

FBI writeup on use of 9mm

This is a discussion on FBI writeup on use of 9mm within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | LooseRounds.com As the blog writer says, this is the report copied to his blog. Makes for interesting reading. ...

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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    FBI writeup on use of 9mm

    FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | LooseRounds.com

    As the blog writer says, this is the report copied to his blog. Makes for interesting reading. The key phrases to me are in the executive summary (I don't know if this is the writer's summary or that of the actual document):

    .Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

    .The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

    An interesting bit of reading whichever way you want to go on it.
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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    "The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)"

    I would have thought that the most important factor in effectively wounding a human target, would have been "Hitting the human target".

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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I took it that hitting the target was a given in the penetration test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StormRhydr View Post
    "The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)"

    I would have thought that the most important factor in effectively wounding a human target, would have been "Hitting the human target".
    Would require a hit [ to effectively wound ].
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    The FBI isn't the end all know all do all.

    Let them do as they wish.

    9mm is great.

    .357 Sig blows it away.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Well I'll tell ya what I think. I think the only part they have right is the penetration requirements.

    I also think it's their way of justifying the millions of 9mm ammo the guberment purchased over the last year or so.

    Once again they are only looking at scenarios from a " most probable" shooting. What about ones where the 9mm is running out of steam and doesn't have enough "ass" when it gets to the target to produce these desired results?

    I have a copy of the original test from the 80's when the. 10mm was tested.
    Sure, bullet construction technology has made the 9mm better in the magic 7 yard gunfight scenarios, but there is still only so much powder you can stuff in that little pepper popper case.
    Just my opinion, and it ain't gonna change.
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    I'm more concerned about hitting the target than what I hit it with. What I use varies regularly, so I have to be equally good with different calibers and guns.
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    You can argue this endlessly, although it does not take much to kill some one if you can hit the target. You should use what works for you. Some say that the 22 cal will do the job. I think 9 is just right for what my wife and I need. But that just my opinion.
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    VIP Member Array Mike1956's Avatar
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    The speed reading method I use relies on anticipated word association. This is sometimes problematic when I scan a title line like this one, which I initially interpret as FBI Wiretap On Use of 9mm. Even at that, my misinterpretation makes perfect sense.
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    As usual, a bureaucrat decides what he wants to do, and orders a subordinate bureaucrat to write something that makes it sound brilliant.

    'Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries'

    Astounding! I wonder how many taxpayer dollars it took for them to figure THAT one out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    The FBI isn't the end all know all do all.

    Let them do as they wish.

    9mm is great.

    .357 Sig blows it away.
    Not for every agent it doesn't. When they went to the 10mm, many agents scores suffered to a point many couldn't qualify with it [ in other words they couldn't control the recoil and thus either missed or scored poorly [ less COM hits ]. So, the 357 sig may do so on paper, but in the real world, it may fail many others having to use it.
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    The projectile that actually hits the target is the one that is most effective. 10mm, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, whatever else is more powerful than 9mm, is clearly better than 9mm...until it's flying right by the opponent because the guy/gal launching it was handling something beyond their capacity to use properly. This holds true whether operating in the capacity of an FBI agent or not. I'll take more hits on target any day of the week, and considering the relative lack of firearms training a lot of agents seem to get, it seems far more likely that will happen with 9mm weapons than otherwise for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Not for every agent it doesn't. When they went to the 10mm, many agents scores suffered to a point many couldn't qualify with it [ in other words they couldn't control the recoil and thus either missed or scored poorly [ less COM hits ]. So, the 357 sig may do so on paper, but in the real world, it may fail many others having to use it.
    I agree. Even the link reported that going back to the 9mm raised scores and was also more cost effective. The gel block penetration was darn close for all the tested calibers. I say save money, shoot more accurately and carry more rounds. For an agent anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Not for every agent it doesn't. When they went to the 10mm, many agents scores suffered to a point many couldn't qualify with it [ in other words they couldn't control the recoil and thus either missed or scored poorly [ less COM hits ]. So, the 357 sig may do so on paper, but in the real world, it may fail many others having to use it.
    Well here's a novel idea; employ people who can meet all the standards of the job without watering down aspects of it to suit the weakest links in the chain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Well here's a novel idea; employ people who can meet all the standards of the job without watering down aspects of it to suit the weakest links in the chain.
    That ship left port back in the 1970's.
    "Pick a ride, any ride, they all go round and round."

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