Question on using "LEO" loads

Question on using "LEO" loads

This is a discussion on Question on using "LEO" loads within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm interested if anyone has utilized Law Enforcement loads by Winchester in their carry guns, and run into any kind of legal problems. (Non-law enforcement ...

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Thread: Question on using "LEO" loads

  1. #1
    Member Array duracles's Avatar
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    Question on using "LEO" loads

    I'm interested if anyone has utilized Law Enforcement loads by Winchester in their carry guns, and run into any kind of legal problems. (Non-law enforcement CCW holders.) I am in the process of getting my permit (my class is tomorrow nite, finally!!!!) and my primary choice would be the 9mm 147 winchester LEO load for carry. I know the LEO designation is voluntary on winchesters part becasue of the infamous "Black Talon" name, but am curious if there is a established rule of thumb or the like on this subject. I'm of course going to get the instructors input, but would appreciate any info you all may have.
    "The best compliment to the Warrior is that others feel safe while you are around." I would add especially if they REALLY ARE safe when you are around.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    As far as I know, in my state there is no ordnance against it. You need to check your local regulations.

    I assume you are referring to the Ranger SXT's. My advice, go with Corbon. They are a hotter load and have had more success from all of my peronal experience, and the research that I have done.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    It's marketing to avoid public perception of a "bad" bullet, designed to protect the company's interests. It's not, thankfully, a legal distinction as to your willingness to go trolling for BG's in the most effective manner possible. (That would be reserved for "concealed" carry of a Ruger 454 or S&W 500 cannon.)

    The "rule of thumb," if anything, is to take it for what it is: marketing voodoo that doesn't hold legal water. If concerned, get some competent legal advice on the question, given your area's propensity for stringing up the GG by his toenails (which varies from location to location, of course).

    IMO, pick the load that works best in your firearm in terms of cycling reliability, that you can reliably use on follow-up shots, that you can reliably acquire at any corner store. Be prepared to defend your selection criteria by documenting exactly what you chose, why you chose it, what your range log shows in terms of reliability and effectiveness. Have a good understanding with your attorney what the counter would be to the suggestion that your "big, bad police round" was designed to kill everyone within spittin' distance. It's not hard to counter, but you should know the strategy and take it into account for selection of your chosen carry ammo, if for no other reason than an enterprising prosecutor will make it a point of his/her case against you, should it ever come to that. Doesn't mean it's a worthy point; just that it's a point that likely will be pressed. Have a counter in place to defend against the spurious attack.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  4. #4
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    The counter to the argument from the prosecutor would be something to the effect of "I am not a ballistics expert, so I bought what the experts - the police - use when they need to protect lives."

    Select your ammo based on reliability and accuracy. If it happens to be "law enforcement" ammo, so be it.

    Matt
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    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    I fully second MattLarson's statement. My 9mm load is the same as the NYCPD. If involved in a shooting and a Lawyer/Liar came after me for the round, which has been done to people in the past, I can always simply point to the fact that the NYCPD thought it the best and safest round for their officers and the city. Who am I to argue with that?

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    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Everyone's had good things to say here. Go with the ammo your gun shoots best (most reliably, most accurately for you).

    If you have to shoot someone, I think that the round you used is going to be the least of your problems. Pointing out that it's what the ____ P.D. uses, after all , might help. They, like us, want the most effective thing they can get in order to stop an attack. It can be twisted around, as most things can be. Even so, it's better to be alive and in legal trouble than dead but politically correct.

    As a side note, I gave my best friend's dad a box of "LEO Only"-marked Federal 124-grain +P+ rounds when he got his permit and started a carrying a Ruger 9mm and a Kel-Tec 9mm as a backup.

    While expressing his gratitude, he also demonstrated why he was always one step ahead of us when we were kids. He noticed the "LEO Only" label and quipped:

    "So I can only shoot policemen with these? Then I don't want them."
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Why bring anything in to court that will "muddy the waters" so to speak?

    I would stay away from LEO ONLY loads unless they were issued to you by a Law Enforcement Agency. Personally, I carry Corbon. It's, IMHO, a better ammo.

    LE Agencies buy on cheapest bid, do you want the cheapest bid in your gun? I know I don't.

    Biker

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    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    LE agencies also don't want thier officers in any way under-equipped. In my duty pistol I carry Speer gold dot, and that is NOT cheap ammo. The reason LE supplied ammo is cheaper is because of large bulk prices, not quality. +p+ 9mm is not illegal to civilains, its just marketing BS, as said before. For personal defense, if it says LE only on it then you probobly have choose a good round. My preference in 9mm is federal 115 +p+ hyshok, or 124 +p+ hydrashok.

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    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    I simply asked a few of teh LEOs I know what they carry- to man they all carry department issued Speer Gold Dot-

    so do I

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    LE agencies also don't want thier officers in any way under-equipped. In my duty pistol I carry Speer gold dot, and that is NOT cheap ammo. The reason LE supplied ammo is cheaper is because of large bulk prices, not quality. +p+ 9mm is not illegal to civilains, its just marketing BS, as said before. For personal defense, if it says LE only on it then you probobly have choose a good round. My preference in 9mm is federal 115 +p+ hyshok, or 124 +p+ hydrashok.
    Some agencies could care less about their employees. Remember, NYPD only went to HP's after having to shell out money. If they cared about their Officers they would've switched from RN years ago back in the wheelgun days.

    You are right though, Speer isn't cheap and is good ammo. Personally I will stick with non LE marked loads.

    Biker

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    My dept. never bought cheap ammo, actually it was exspensive as ammo goes, but the quanity we bought got the price down. I also have several friends in different agencies, and none are issued cheap ammo. With every dept. or agency I've known of, if you get the ammo they use, you have chosen a excellent performer, but you'll have to pay more for it than many other types. I will agree though, that Corbon is very good, and usually expensive. As for "LEO" markings on the box, just marketing, as someone else said.

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I do know of cheap ammo that was issued that was also worthless.

    We are of course having to go back to the wheelgun days when RNL was what was issued. I'm old enough to remember those days, and not fondly.

    Most departments are better equipt these days and do tend to issue better ammo, but it wasn't all that long ago that NYPD was issuing FMJ for the 9mm.

    Biker

  13. #13
    Member Array 9mmMick's Avatar
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    Gold Dot, Gold, Gold Dot!! Did I say Gold Dot?
    Don't use anything that is only used by LEO's.
    The defense attorney might eat you for lunch.
    JMHO.
    Last edited by 9mmMick; February 3rd, 2007 at 11:55 AM.

  14. #14
    DRT
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    Gold Dots, or any other bonded bullet for that matter, are only better through glass but Ranger T and HST are better in other scenarios. They expand more reliably, particularly after heavy clothing, and have sharper profiles. For most CCW scenarios, Ranger T and HST will serve you better.

  15. #15
    Member Array dfoster9's Avatar
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    +1 on the HST. That's what I had in mine when the stink hit the fan, stopped him fine. My experience with that round goes beyond a ballistic test with wet packs and denim. 9mm 124 standard pressure.
    Kenny G is allowed to live because Chuck Norris doesn't kill women.
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