Winchester Ammo

Winchester Ammo

This is a discussion on Winchester Ammo within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; How can you tell the difference between the Ranger SXT and newer Ranger T. I've read the older SXT has 8 fangs and brass cases. ...

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Thread: Winchester Ammo

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    Member Array MJZZZ's Avatar
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    Winchester Ammo

    How can you tell the difference between the Ranger SXT and newer Ranger T. I've read the older SXT has 8 fangs and brass cases. The newer T has 6 fangs, nickel cases and a brass primer. Is this the correct info? Mike Z
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen.'' Warren vs District of Columbia


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    Senior Member Array mech1369dlw's Avatar
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    I am looking at my 9mm SXT right now. It has a silver casing, looks like 6 petals, brass primer, looks like copper jacket slug. Got it last wek, so I suppose it is the new stuff. FWIW
    A person is justified in the use of deadly force, if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

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    Just pulled one out my range bag...Silver(nickle)case,8 fangs,brass primer...?

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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    Actually, both the 8 fangs and 6 fangs can be new. The 8 fang flavour is the regular Supreme SXT that is marketed to the civvie crowd. It comes in a black box and only has 20-25 rounds in it. The Ranger T SXT, or the 6 fang version, comes in a 50 round, brownish type box that has Ranger in large letters. That is the LEO marketed stuff.

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    Member Array Timothy's Avatar
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    I'd like to see a geletin test with one against the other. I'm assuming the 6 fang version will penetrate deeper.

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    Member Array MJZZZ's Avatar
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    I have read somewhere that the Supreme SXT has completely different ballistic characteristics than the LEO Ranger SXT or Ranger T. Mike Z

    Winchester Black Talon Revisited

    There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability. Here's the lowdown:

    Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons. The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure. Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo. Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

    Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

    Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

    According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from Winchester or the FBI.

    We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together and coughs up performance data for this cartridge.

    Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

    There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.

    The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.

    (Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)

    The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.

    Recently, the newer Winchester 9mm 127 grain +P+ Ranger SXT bullet (product number RA9SXTP) has been found to penetrate some lower threat level soft body armor. Second Chance Body Armor Company recalled one of its vests in response to officer safety concerns posed by this particular bullet.

    Click here to read the Second Chance vest recall press release.

    In the latest issue of the International Wound Ballistics Association's journal, Wound Ballistics Review, there's an article written by Duncan MacPherson, "A Body Armor Penetration Rumor," that explains the reason why the RA9SXTP bullet can penetrate some body armor. According to MacPherson, it's not due to any special aspect of the bullet design nor does its performance represent any new dynamics in armor penetration. He says it's due to a minor flaw in the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) body armor certification test protocol:

    "There are two principal limitations in [the NIJ] rating system. The first limitation is that all armor with the same rating (e.g., passes level 2A and fails level 2) does not have identical performance; this is obvious (because there is no attempt to, or mechanism, for evaluating intermediate performance), but is often overlooked. The second limitation is that different bullet designs do not necessarily have the same relative efficiency in penetrating the quite different armor designs of different manufacturers; this whole area is not well modeled either analytically or experimentally."

    Winchester tightly controls distribution of its RA9SXTP cartridge. When we last checked, Winchester did not permit its distributors to stock this load. It had to be shipped from the factory directly to a law enforcement agency address.

    Finally, Winchester also produced and manufactured a line of centerfire rifle ammunition under the Black Talon name, which has since been renamed Fail-Safe. The Black Talon rifle bullet was completely different from the handgun bullet design. It did not expand to deploy talon-like claws. Instead, it had a solid copper nose (similar to a Barnes X-Bullet), with a lead core base encapsulated in a steel liner to prevent jacket rupture upon impact. This bullet had a baked on coating of molybdenum disulfide, which gave it a distinctive black colored appearance also."
    Last edited by MJZZZ; February 17th, 2007 at 06:37 PM.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen.'' Warren vs District of Columbia

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