Several Ideas...Your Comments Please
This is a discussion on Several Ideas...Your Comments Please within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Obviously you can caluclate mass and speed to give you a number (force) for any round you want (9mm .40 .45 10mm etc). Now from ...
March 22nd, 2007 08:20 PM
Several Ideas...Your Comments Please
Obviously you can caluclate mass and speed to give you a number (force) for any round you want (9mm .40 .45 10mm etc). Now from my basic understanding real life (in terms of shooting flesh) is drastically more complicated than simply speed and mass. Since we can't really control that we have balistic jelly etc.
Here is my idea for evaluating which handgun works for someone and how well it works. According to the guy who I took my CCW class from the majority of shootings are over within 2.5 seconds. Lets assume you need a 10" group to be called a hit. Use whatever gun you want and deliver as many hits as you can in 2.5 seconds at 3 different distances 7,14,21ft respectively. Then add up the "Force" delivered by each round and see what the total is for that round and weapon.
Other than arguing about calibre is there anything I'm totally off base on here in terms of a somewhat decent predictor of which gun is best for someone in a threat situation.
Another thing (and please remember I know very little about balistics or weapons but I'm learning). I would bet that in real life "force" as it equates to speed and mass isn't always accurate as it might seem on paper. After all rounds deform, penetrate differently, expand at different depths etc. In any event the idea is to cause as much damage as possible so...instead of measuring force by speed and mass couldn't you use balistic jelly to measure the amount or volume of mass disrupted by the slug therefor you really can start tracking tissue damage and not just speed and mass? Perhaps they've been doing this for years, I have no idea. My guess is that in order to do this you would have to have the jelly compressed by a known pressure and measure the outer pressure as the slug enters the jelly.
March 22nd, 2007 08:50 PM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
So many variables.!!
Adding up hits may not actually be that instructive as it is only what each hitting round does disruptively that counts - one reason we keep playing that old record ''shot placement''. Thus the ''force'' quotient you seek may be very empirical.
Much tho can be down to luck - instance a good COM contact but hits sternum and does not penetrate much. Equally, intercostal spaces might let a round thru easily but a direct hit to a rib might slow it down too much.
A penetrating hit might cause a pneumothorax one side but if blood loss relatively minimal, only the shock effect might slow the guy down, if at all.
Your three distances multiple shots in 2.5 seconds might be a good practice routine - to stay grouped tight enough but the cumulative effect may only be that due to the percentage of real damaging hits. Not sure this will by default feed back either to caliber or gun or even total number of hits - other than the gun being good for you personally to operate effectively.
A lucky shot from a .25 could be a deciding factor in one situation - .22 even ..... but chances are several hits within a 10" circle of COM should see at least one or two doing enough damage to end the fight.
Actually ''stopping'' tho as we find often when discussed, is a whole separate ball game, compared with gun/caliber/hits aspects.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."http://www.rkba-2a.com/
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March 23rd, 2007 09:41 AM
I am reminded of a shooting I responded to when I was a new officer. The wife shot the husband at close range with a .22 revolver. The bullet (a single round) entered one side, ricocheted inside his chest cavity and exited near the entrance wound, striking the wife in the arm (albeit slightly). The bullet punctured his aorta and both lungs on it's ride inside his thorax. He died on the way to the emergency room.
On the flip side I've seen a subject still keep coming after several hits from a .357 near COM. He survived.
Shot placement, and the mass of the subject are all variables. In the first case the victim was of a slight build, while in the second the subject was over 6'2" and 300lbs.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone
The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.
March 23rd, 2007 09:56 AM
That's my take on "caliber wars." It's not the meat, it's the motion. It's how much force you can apply to the target; how much damage you can inflict in a short period of time; how quickly you can stop the threat.
Originally Posted by markp
That takes bullets on target, forceful strikes by the bullets, organ/nerve damage. Possibly, your magazine will contain a "magic" bullet that will get the job done all by itself. Likely not. Thus, all sorts of things come into play: ability to execute a follow-on shot, which can be affected by recoil, flame & noise; ability to maintain accuracy over time and after several shots, which can be affected by the same things, as well as familiarity with the gun and its handling during heavy shooting; ability of the bullets to get the job done, which is affected by caliber and force. And ultimately, the tactics employed by the defender can dramatically turn the tide. All of this affects the outcome.
What' the most effective? The one that bets suits my abilities, my preferred handling characteristics, my carry mode and the specific situation. Everyone is different. So's every situation (ie, shotgun for home defense; handgun for carrying out and about; rifle for the field).
March 23rd, 2007 12:23 PM
There's only two ways to stop an assailant with a handgun bullet: severing the central nervous system (hitting the brain stem or spinal cord) or causing enough blood loss that the assailant looses consciousness. Neither of these are directly related to a bullet's energy or momentum. They are related to the bullet's penetration and the size of the wound cavity.
For a central nervous system shot, penetration is the primary concern, since the CNS is located deep in the body and heavily protected by bone. In causing blood loss, the size of the cavity is more important, since that governs the amount of blood that will flow out of the wound. Penetration is still important, since the heart and most major blood vessels are fairly deep in the body. Shot placement is important for both stopping mechanisms (probably more so for the CNS shot) but even with excellent shot placement, there's a lot of luck involved. A shot to the center of the chest could pass through without hitting anything vital, and a shot that hits the assailant in the leg could go through the femoral artery causing massive blood loss. That's why we want the ability to make quick follow-up shots, since even the best aimed single shot may not do the job.
So, what we want in a bullet is a large wound cavity, deep penetration, and the ability to place as many rounds on target as quickly as possible. Problem is, these three are somewhat mutually exclusive. The best penetration comes from high velocity, fully jacketed bullets (something like a FMJ .357 Magnum). However, the resulting would cavity is going to be very small. The largest wound cavity comes from big, frangible bullets (say, a magsafe .45 ACP), but penetration is pretty anemic. The quickest follow up shots come from a small, low velocity round (a .380, for example) but both penetration and wound volume are going to be low. Choosing a self-defense round is inherently going to be a compromise among these characteristics, along with a few others (the size of the weapon and the number of rounds it carries).
The generally accepted way of doing this is to consider rounds that penetrates a certain minimum distance in ballistic gelatin (usually around 12 inches) and look at how big the wound cavity is. Then it becomes a tradeoff between the size of the wound cavity and other factors like ease of follow-up shots, weapon size and ammo capacity.
So would it be possible to create a mathematical model to find the "best" round? Probably, but the result would depend on the relative weight assigned to those other factors. If the person making the model thinks follow-up shots are really important and weights that factor heavily, then the model is going to tend to point towards a 9mm round. If the model emphasizes wound cavity size over other factors, then it'll rate the .45 ACP as most effective.
In essence, you end up with the exact same debate people always have over which caliber is most effective. That's because there is no single right answer. Every person's ability to control recoil and make follow-up shots is different, as is the size of gun they can effectively conceal. The caliber wars aren't really about which caliber is best, they're about which caliber suits a particular person. Since every person is different, there can never be an agreement about which caliber is best.
March 23rd, 2007 02:31 PM
Yep. "Effectiveness" is measured by the respective parties:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
1) Will to live
2) Will to kill
March 23rd, 2007 02:50 PM
I respectfully suggest you add up the ways to de-escilate a situation , or stay entirely out of a gunfight in the first place ( I have won every gunfight that i did not attend ) . Stopping power cannot be quantified since it is highly dependant on the mental and physical property's of the shootee . Almost any " Service Caliber " handgun caliber is as good as any other since all ammo nowdays is pretty much loaded to conform to the F.B.I. specifications . Shot placement trumps ammo choice , or caliber by a high margin, and not putting yourself there thro carelessness , or intent trumps shot placement . As a CCW holder i honestly could care less about terminal ballistics . If i screw up and find myself defending myself/others I will shoot untill it takes effect. If someone is chemicaly enhanced this may take a reload before they realize they have been shot , but it will take a reload with the latest " wonder round " or with ball ammo . I do carry quality HP ammo because i dont want to penetrate the VCA and shoot the 12 year old autistic , blind , mozart clone down the street, which would be my luck lol . My best thoughts are quit fixating on equipment and components , and go to the range . Learn to shoot close fast , and long accurate . While you do this also learn a bit about avoidance , both verbaly , and in lifestyle habits .
As a note this is not a post directed at the original poster so much as it is for folks new to ccw and responsible defensive carry in general .
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
March 24th, 2007 01:10 AM
Really good post by Blackeagle
Oh yeah & you other guys were good too.
But, I especially liked this:
"The caliber wars aren't really about which caliber is best, they're about which caliber suits a particular person. Since every person is different, there can never be an agreement about which caliber is best."
Please allow me to add a little.
The best handgun is one that points naturally for the defensive shooter. A firearm that hits where you look.
If you can't hit it - you can't stop anything with it.
Also important is choosing at least one firearm that you WILL carry all the time.
If you don't have it with you - you can't hit with it or stop anything with it because you don't have it.
Then choose any major self~defense cartridge that feeds and functions with supreme emphasis on reliability because if your firearm fails to function right when you need it most then that is one additional potentially costly headache that you don't need at that exact moment.
Whatever handgun, caliber, and cartridge you finally decide on keep shooting it as accurately and as quickly possible until whatever is trying to kill you stops trying to kill you.
Should you decide on a semi-auto then carry at least one extra high quality magazine (that you can get to in a hurry) since the weakest link in every semi-automatic firearm will always be the magazine.
Carry your firearm in such a way that you can gain access to it as quickly as possible. Do NOT Deep Cover your firearm unless you absolutely have to have it deep covered.
In other words don't conceal it where you cannot get to it QUICKLY.
Unless for some super important reason you MUST carry it in deep cover.
All of the above is as dead of an issue as you will be if your firearm is down there keeping company with your jingleberries or locked up in a Kramer Deep Cover Confi-dead Shirt.
If you can't get it out - and presented on target within 1.5 seconds or less then carry a rabbit's foot also for Good Luck.
Last edited by QKShooter; March 24th, 2007 at 01:18 AM.
March 24th, 2007 01:27 AM
That was a "typo" error up there...I didn't mean to type Kramer Confi-dead Shirt.
I meant Kramer Confident Shirt.
March 28th, 2007 05:24 PM
You won't have 2.5 seconds to see how many shots you can get on target. If this is a defensive shooting, (and it certainly will be) then the gun fight has likely started (clock is ticking) with your gun in the holster. Assuming you even have a chance to get to it, it'll eat up the better part of a second or so (depending on your training) to clear leather and engage your target. If you're slow, this "2.5 second" gunfight will be half over before you even can get the muzzle on target.
Rule of thumb has always been to bring as much gun as you can shoot quickly and accurately. Both are important .. misses don't impress the BG and being too slow may get you full of holes.
As Redneck said, you come out a winner every time if you avoid a gun fight .. and, even if you win, you likely lose.
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