Reload ammo in Court

This is a discussion on Reload ammo in Court within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok I'll make it simple. You just do what you dang well please. When you happen to take someones life or seriously injure them to ...

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Thread: Reload ammo in Court

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Ok I'll make it simple. You just do what you dang well please. When you happen to take someones life or seriously injure them to defend yourself or someone you love and you end up in a pair of cuffs issed by a govt agency to a person responsible with enforcing warrants issued by a judge for your arrest because some lawyer decides to get his name in the press and make a political career at your expense....spend more than $250,000.00 to defend yourself (if you can afford that, get your folks to mortgage their homes, freinds ect) you might (might if your lawyer you can afford to hire is better than the prosecuting attorney) get off. Then again, you could remove what we in law enforcement call a "red hearing" from your case. But if you want to carry your better than any cartridge manufactor can ever make bullet you put together yourself then do it. No sweat off my back. But realize that is the attitude you are sending when you stuff you favorite carry weapon with your own favorite home brewed ammo, that you are better than the professionals at CCI, Cor-Bon, Federal, Winchester, ect. Ohhh and not to mention that not a single law enforcement agency in the country allows their personnel to carry home brewed ammo (according to a survery conducted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police). I will warn you its not smart and can only lead you into a making yourself stand out and more likely to get targeted by a overzelious DA or states attorney (aka Janet Reno taking EVERY self defense shooting before a grand jury when she was the AG of Florida). For me? I'll train religiously to survive the incident and make sure that what I carry does not scream out I'm different, ie Black Talons, Pit Bull pistols ect. Yes even a name can make a gun unknowlegable jury not like you. ALWAYS remember the prosecution ALWAYS has the last word. A jury is sent out to make their verdict and the last words they have fresh in their mind is the last words they heard, the prosecutors.

    Oh is you believe all prosecutors are ethical.....I know a few lacrosse players who'd love to talk to you. Wern't even their and still were "charged" with rape...and that charge will NEVER go away. Any officer who runs their name on a computer check for the rest of their lives will always find out they were indicted and criminally charged with rape. How many people will remember the case 15 or 20 years from now? But I bet they will sure have to answer that question forever. Imigian trying to get a security clearance to work for the govt? Those guys can forget it, will never happen.

    I'll go walk on the grass cause I earned the right.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    I don't currently handload because of lack of time and space. In the past most of my ammo was home-made. I would not hesitate to use my handloads if I was currently loading.

    I would be using the same commercially available bullets that are used in factory ammo, and would not be exceeding the loads in a standard loading manual. My loads would certainly to less powerful than some of the commercially available ammo, such as the +Ps and DoubleTap.

    Why would I be using reloads? Because of the cost. I am living on a very limited income and factory ammo is expensive. Target shooting with handloads is much more economical. I rather doubt a jury would ever count that against you.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    I'm sure some prosecuting atty. somewhere would/has painted out a picture of a gun owner, "brewing up killer ammunition in his basement, etc..."...

    Use factroy ammo for all th eabove reasons too?

    Think about it...Two responses to th esame question:

    ATTY: "Why kind of ammo was in your gun?

    YOU, OPT 1: "Hand-loaded xxxgr with xxgr xxxxxpowder..."

    or

    YOU, OPT 2: "Winchester ammo I bought at Wal Mart"



    Just my .02, but why give an anti gun bed-wetter any more (pardon the pun) ammo?


    .

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    What is interesting is that their is NO CASE LAW on the matter of Reloads being used for SELF DEFENSE.
    Right. Being the test case sucks. Why be that guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I see no difference in one sitting in their basement brewing up the strongest load their weapon will handle and shopping the Internet for all the exotic ammo that is available today. Bullets that look like they were pulled from the jawbone of a Great White Shark, Guaranteed to stop a wild elephant even when shot from a 2" barrel revolver, etc. How about carrying a 500 S&W for SD instead of a .38? A 10mm instead of a .25ACP.
    Ask Harold Fish, the Arizona hiker who was convicted, in part, based on the argument that his 10mm handgun was excessively powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    If a prosecutor wanted to "wring out your shorts" over the claim of premeditation by using a "super reload" he most likely would be charging your with Capitol Murder where premeditation is proven to have precedence.

    There have been many people shot with other than factory ammo and the fact that there is no case law showing sucessful prosecution speaks for itself. It just doesn't make for any profitable magazine articles or heated Forum Discussions.
    Never underestimate the lengths a politically savvy prosecutor will go to make your case into a political stepping stone. A lot depends on the jurisdiction involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    As for the "Ambulance Chasers", they will sue you if you don't sterilize your bullets and his client contracted an infection after you shot him.

    Pretty soon we will be a Society that is afraid to go out of the house. Sorry, not me.
    Your choice. Just understand that if, God forbid, the day ever comes, you will be trying to educate 12 people who probably learned everything they know about guns watching 24 and their final exam will determine their freedom.

    Personally, I don't see any benefit to giving the prosecutor another irrelevant but dramatic factoid to use to confuse the jury further.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I reload 45acp for training and competition because it brings the cost down a lot. Let's me shoot more often.

    However, even though I have been reloading for about three years now and haven't had a problem with my reloads, I don't feel like I would want to trust my life with them.

    I'll let the pros (Federal, Speer, Corbon) handle making my defensive loads thank you very much.

    I'm not too concerned about a prosecutor. If I am involved with a righteous shoot, I believe I will be fine (unless my attorney is an idiot).
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Let's look at the various facets of this subject:

    - This forum is at least National (if not International) in membership. What plays well in Houston, damn well won't play as well in Boston!!

    - Even if you live in "free America" where your right to self-defense is unquestionable, WHAT IF you travel somewhere else (where your CCW is recognized) that does NOT have the same attitude? Are you going to change your ammo to fit the "political climate"?

    - I used to carry reloads for my .380 CCW, mostly because 30 years ago I don't think much was even available in decent defensive ammo for that caliber. I changed that policy more years ago than I can remember. [I also changed the caliber that I carry. ]

    - I've been at a few seminars where Mas Ayoob discussed this issue and admonished us NOT to carry reloads. Given the part of the country we live in, that sounded like a prudent thing to do.

    - Indisputable fact: Reloaded ammo may not be as well "sealed" as factory defensive loads and thus reliability could be an issue at a most inopportune time! Why risk it to save $10-15??

    - Realize that some states laws may give you the RIGHT to use deadly force, whereas others make it an "AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE" to do so!! MASSIVE difference here. In MA, our laws make it the latter . . . this means you WILL be ARRESTED AND CHARGED with MURDER and YOU get to raise this issue of "affirmative defense" to convince a JURY that you shouldn't spend the next 20-30 years in jail for doing what you did!

    - Our DAs (in MA) do not usually handle cases directly, but have their ADAs do it. The DAs are elected but the ADAs are appointed by the DA. Thus they are usually insulated from political fallout wrt prosecuting someone for defending themselves or their family. Besides all they need to do is point to our law of "Affirmative Defense" and claim "not my fault", just doing my job and they will be right. There are more states with the same legal approach to this than one might think.

    - Some states like MA, the population is so liberal and brainwashed that most all are convinced that you have NO right to self-defense and that you should always just dial 911 and wait for the cavalry (seriously). Thus they would look upon any taking of life (by a non-perp) as "excessive force" and unjustified . . . these folks are on your jury!! The police in this state NEVER tell abused and threatened women to buy/carry a gun for self-protection . . . it would be unheard of and that chief would be looking for a new job in a NY Second! Where there have been many rapes, the police have issued whistles to the women (not kidding) and OC/Mace is restricted to those with a gun permit/background check and not allowed on any school/college property by law. In fact it is standard police practice in MA that in the case of domestic abuse, BOTH partners' gun permits are suspended/revoked (necessary just to possess) AND all guns/ammo is confiscated (actually a requirement by law if a permit is pulled)!! [Not turning everything over is a felony IIRC.]

    To sum it up:

    - Shoot reloads for practice and save money.

    - Invest some of that money saved in good factory carry ammo and use it for "social events"!!

    However, it is ultimately YOUR decision.
    Last edited by LenS; March 25th, 2007 at 10:56 AM.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I see no difference in one sitting in their basement brewing up the strongest load their weapon will handle and shopping the Internet for all the exotic ammo that is available today.
    That may well be true, but then, we aren't the ones being asked. We're not members of the fine 12 folks sittin' in the jury box being swayed by the prosecutor ... who, in simple point of fact, only gets gold stars if someone hangs, not if he/she merely does what's right.

    It's a matter of percentages. There now is, indeed, at least one case in the record where the use of un-knowable, un-traceable, un-measurable handloads was part of the weight of evidence used to convict a man who appears to have been reasonably justified to defend himself against someone threatening to kill him. Hence, it's now a matter of very bad percentages, at that.

    For my money (for my use): the formal manufacturers with a federal tax ID and known quantities are good enough to get the job done. And use of one of them, even the best of them (ie, DT, Buffalo Bore, CorBon) is far less of a risk than any witches brew I might claim has certain properties ... no matter how good I think I am. Again, it's not what we think; it's what the prosecutor thinks and can use to sway the jury. It is an element being actively used and, if that cannot be shot down by the defense counsel, merely adds to the weight of evidence against a self-defense claim.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    And always remember what attorneys call a jury (and I'll admit even I have refered to them as have other leo's)....the twelve dumbest people who couldnt get out of jury duty. I would be honored to sit on a jury but am pretty much banned for life due to my profession, but EVERY jury selection I have been involved with, if it was a shooting case, one of the first questions asked by the prosecutor was if a person owned a firearm, a CCL (the prosecutor ran every potential juror throught the CCL checks but never criminal checks that I knew of) or ever owned/carried a firearm. The reason I mentioned that is you will not have a friendly jury, the deck will be stacked against you from the presecution determinitation through the grand jury (which unlike what you see on tv is ALL the prosecutor) up till the criminal trial. Its your call, but look at what you value, is it really worth it? Is your stuff really that much better than one $20 box of ammo?
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    "I bought my ammunition at Wal Mart..."


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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    - Our DAs (in MA) do not usually handle cases directly, but have their ADAs do it....



    - Some states like MA...

    Ah, Massachussettstan...

    Glad I don't live there...Geesh.

    Sounds liek ya'll are subjects more than citizens...

    .

  12. #26
    Member Array amlevin's Avatar
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    One question remains to be answered after all these posts. If reloading has been around for all these decades, and nobody has been prosecuted for shooting someone with their "home brew loads" (thus the lack of case law) does that mean that nobody has EVER used reloads for SD? Somehow I think not. With all the theory that has been tossed around here, can anyone answer why there is a lack of case law? I would think that it is because there is no case to be made against using reloads.

    Even though I challenge the argument against reloads, I carry factory loads. But what if I was at the range, shot all my factory loads, and had only reloads for the trip home? What if all I had available was a weapon loaded with reloads when I needed to defend myself?

    This argument, which seems to be based on the fear of being prosecuted or sued, seem a little paranoid. What about driving your car customized car? Didn't you want it to go faster than the law allows? So if you have an accident, aren't you affraid that someone will accuse you of making your car more "lethal"?

    Just remember, the biggest issue when you shoot someone is "was it justified". if it was you have little to fear. If not, you are now about to be burried in 'doo-doo', regardless of the ammo you used.
    ""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    I think I'll carry reloads in the woods and on my property, and factory out in town. that is, once i get out of this piss poor state. (CA)

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    One question remains to be answered after all these posts. If reloading has been around for all these decades, and nobody has been prosecuted for shooting someone with their "home brew loads"
    All i can say is either you are a troll ( unlikely on this board ) or you did not take the time to research the ayoob files case listed above , the use of handloads was a direct factor in a criminal conviction . I am shure other caselaw is out there , but wont bother to look for it since the issue is settled for me and anyone i may instruct .

    Edited to add , I will now make good on my word and abandon the thread . I am not interested in arguement on the issue , and many have posted how it is in the real world .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  15. #29
    Member Array amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    All i can say is either you are a troll ( unlikely on this board ) or you did not take the time to research the ayoob files case listed above , the use of handloads was a direct factor in a criminal conviction . I am shure other caselaw is out there , but wont bother to look for it since the issue is settled for me and anyone i may instruct .

    Edited to add , I will now make good on my word and abandon the thread . I am not interested in arguement on the issue , and many have posted how it is in the real world .
    I'm sorry you feel I might be a troll because I have a different opinion. The Case Law everyone refers to is a case involving a suicide with someone elses weapon. Not a case of someone shooting in self defense using reloads.
    ""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Fed, I have jury duty (maybe . . . I'm in a "standby pool") on Tuesday. We'll see if I get tossed. This time they use a questionnaire about involvement in LE or ever been a victim of crime, so it'll be interesting.

    Only other time I got called up, it wasn't the LE experience that tossed me but it was a medical malpractice case similar to something that had happened to my late Mother . . . but I was tossed back to the jury pool to sit it out for another 3 hours in a hot, small room.
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