Reload ammo in Court

Reload ammo in Court

This is a discussion on Reload ammo in Court within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Didn't want to highjack Stromvet's thread. I have often heard and agree with the advice not to use reloads for carry in your defensive pistols. ...

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Thread: Reload ammo in Court

  1. #1
    Senior Moderator
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    Reload ammo in Court

    Didn't want to highjack Stromvet's thread.

    I have often heard and agree with the advice not to use reloads for carry in your defensive pistols. Why give a Prosecutor ammo (pun included) against you.

    My Question can any one point me to a case were this happened? I saw that this question was asked before but I didn't see a case mentioned.

    Thanks
    Last edited by pgrass101; March 23rd, 2007 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Better wording
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,


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    Not sure anyone has (yet) come up with one, that I recall.

    This whole deal is more based on ''why be a test case'' type of deal.... meaning too possibly, better if carrying ammo same in type as LE etc.

    CYA thing really.
    Chris - P95
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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    IIRC one was written up by Ayoob in his combat handguns collum some years ago . It didn't deal with a defensive shooting , but a suicide and residue tho if i recall correctly . Personaly i wouldnt since the cost of quality factory ammo is low upside the cost of a lawyer's hourly rate .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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    Damn,
    You beat me yeah Ayoob did an article on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    IIRC one was written up by Ayoob in his combat handguns collum some years ago . It didn't deal with a defensive shooting , but a suicide and residue tho if i recall correctly . Personaly i wouldnt since the cost of quality factory ammo is low upside the cost of a lawyer's hourly rate .
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    I like, and trust factory ammo. I never consider subsequent legal action when I contemplate having to use it. My point is, if you're in a lawful shoot situation, I don't think it will matter later whether you fired reloads or factory. Granted, the prosecution in a criminal case may try to make that an issue, but ultimately, if it's a good shoot, the ammo has no relevance. Keep in mind the prosecution has a duty NOT to attempt to prosecute a lawful action.

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    Case

    The case was State (NJ?) vs Danial Bias. To make a long story short, gunshot residue could not be compared or tested because the shooting involved mixed reloads. This brought doubt into exactly how far away he was from the victim, his girlfriend. IIRC it was mistrial, mistrial, mistrial, conviction of manslaughter instead of 1st degree murder. Written about many times by Ayoob, and we had a brief presentation about it in my CCW class.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Super thanks for your input , the case info gives anyone enough to look it up . I do remember that the gsr test was either inconclusive or improperly appplied , depend on who and when you took testomony from , and it did result in a conviction of a lessor included charge . Point is its an issue that is easily avoided for minimal extra cost .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    One case I watched years back where a young sergeant was carrying his own reloads in his 357 and during a racially charged shooting which brought alot of public outcry, the prosecutor making a case on the only thing she had went after the sgt because he used reloads instead of comercially available ammo (the dept was small and the officers provided their own ammo). Fortunatly the defense attorney paid for by the FOP was good and tore up the prosecutor who later lost his reelection bid because of his political prosecution of an officer. However the officer lost alot because of the trial (his wife, his job and his career). It was a mess. Taught me a lesson. I dont even reload anymore after that. Purchase all my ammo, keep the box tops with lot numbers, switch out my carry ammo semi-annually (all of it) and use last 6 months ammo for qualifications. Do as you wish but for me and my guns....its manufactored ammo.
    Steve
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    Thanks for the input. I can try to track that case down.

    I don't carry reloads only use them at the range or for IDPA, just was wondering about it.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Fed some of us have " seen " it , others have read . I take the questions as new folks till they argue , then i abandon the thread . I truly try to put things simply without going into cases or court reasonable reasons tho . Thanks for the personal post on the issue , its one that comes up from time to time and some seem to refuse to grasp the concept of factory ammo , and you helped lay out the downside to reloads .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    The whole issue goes back to a single source, and article by a writer. No actual court cases of SD with Reloads being prosecuted.

    Why would they be any different. What if you happened to use a black powder percussion pistol or rifle in your self defense? Certainly no Factory Loads for those.

    The bottom line is that the use of Deadly Force for Self Defense is legal as long as it is necessary. Whether you use a Knife, Hammer, Sword, Handgun, Rifle, or Shotgun. Whatever the weapon is loaded with is immaterial unless you believe that a certain writer is the be all/end all authority on the subject.
    ""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""

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    Yes, amlevin, we all agree that a good shoot should be a good shoot. But look at the case histories - there are tons of them out there that graphically show how a good shoot can go "bad" for seemingly innocuous reasons. Using reloads opens up an avenue of attack for an unscrupulous (or ignorant) prosecutor to use in your criminal AND civil trials. Don’t count on a jury to be savvy enough to discount the prosecutor’s assertion that you were a bloodthirsty maniac, sitting in your basement making up special bullets because the normal ones available weren’t deadly enough…

    There’s no real reason to use reloads as carry ammo, IMO. I certainly wouldn’t say that you don’t have the right to carry them, I just don’t think that the pros outweigh the cons for most of us.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    The case was State (NJ?) vs Danial Bias.
    "Handloads For Self-Defense: The Daniel Bias Case." Published in The Ayoob Files, and in American Handgunner (May 1, 2006).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Member Array amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Yes, amlevin, we all agree that a good shoot should be a good shoot. But look at the case histories - there are tons of them out there that graphically show how a good shoot can go "bad" for seemingly innocuous reasons. Using reloads opens up an avenue of attack for an unscrupulous (or ignorant) prosecutor to use in your criminal AND civil trials. Don’t count on a jury to be savvy enough to discount the prosecutor’s assertion that you were a bloodthirsty maniac, sitting in your basement making up special bullets because the normal ones available weren’t deadly enough…

    There’s no real reason to use reloads as carry ammo, IMO. I certainly wouldn’t say that you don’t have the right to carry them, I just don’t think that the pros outweigh the cons for most of us.
    What is interesting is that their is NO CASE LAW on the matter of Reloads being used for SELF DEFENSE.

    I see no difference in one sitting in their basement brewing up the strongest load their weapon will handle and shopping the Internet for all the exotic ammo that is available today. Bullets that look like they were pulled from the jawbone of a Great White Shark, Guaranteed to stop a wild elephant even when shot from a 2" barrel revolver, etc. How about carrying a 500 S&W for SD instead of a .38? A 10mm instead of a .25ACP.

    If a prosecutor wanted to "wring out your shorts" over the claim of premeditation by using a "super reload" he most likely would be charging your with Capitol Murder where premeditation is proven to have precedence.

    There have been many people shot with other than factory ammo and the fact that there is no case law showing sucessful prosecution speaks for itself. It just doesn't make for any profitable magazine articles or heated Forum Discussions.

    As for the "Ambulance Chasers", they will sue you if you don't sterilize your bullets and his client contracted an infection after you shot him.

    Pretty soon we will be a Society that is afraid to go out of the house. Sorry, not me.
    ""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    I've always trained wirh reloads, and carry factory.

    .

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