AMEN!Originally Posted by Tom357
This is a discussion on Comparitive Overview - Most effective calibers within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tom357 As you implied in a previous post, there are effective handgun cartridges in most medium to large calibers. None are as ...
AMEN!Originally Posted by Tom357
Well said, Tom.
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
As i said, excellent marketing.Originally Posted by Tom357
Faster doesn't really mean anything unless it's a good 1000fps faster. the 357 sig isn't more accurate. 2 inches less bullet drop at 100 yards perhaps, but that's kind of meaningless, really.While improvements in 9mm bullet design have evened the playing field with regard to barrier penetration, and offer similar penetration and expansion characteristics, the .357 SIG still delivers its payload faster and more accurately.
Your taxpayers might ask some questions if you switched the entire force from 9mm to 357 sig a few years back and now are switching back to 9mm. You cave to account for police agencies going with what's popular. How many agencies bought the beretta because the military adopted it. How many went to 147gr 9mm before effective loadings were available because the FBI said to. how many then switch to 115gr +P+ when that was the latest and greatest. The cheif's a chevy guy so they bought impala's. That kind of stuff. Angencies are suceptable to fads.What gelatin can't tell us is how effective a round is against a living human target. We have to rely on experience to tell us that. Experience suggests that most agencies that switch to the .357 SIG aren't switching to something else. Because I think agencies are driven by economic fundamentals of cost and benefit, I conclude that the success of the .357 SIG is due to more than marketing. Given that there are good 9mm alternatives out there, now, there has to be a reason they don't switch.
Now that's plenty easy to agree with, but i don't see me judging anyone. I'm stating my opinions and backing them up with sources. Just because i'm of the opinion that .357 sig offers no advantages over 9mm and you carry one doesn't mean i'm judging you. Same with you revolver guys.As you implied in a previous post, there are effective handgun cartridges in most medium to large calibers. None are as effective as their long gun relatives. Recent advances in bullet design have significantly improved their performance, though, which make the shooter's shot placement a more important determinant in overall effectiveness. Thus, a shooter is obliged to select the firearm and platform he or she shoots best, whether small and fast, big and slow, or big and fast. I welcome your opinion of your choice. I am less interested in your judgement of others.
Actually, I was just laying down cover fire with my glock during a team movement drill in an advanced tactical handgun course last week. Glad i had those 17 round mags.Tisk tisk club. I can see where you're coming from but that's TWICE you've insulted revolvers.
Don't make me get the tube sock after ya.
There was once a really good thread on The High Road posted by an LEO who was pissed off they took away his revolver and gave him a piece of tupperware. I wish I'd bookmarked it.
Seriously I don't blame you for not liking them but saying stuff like they aren't suitable for <insert situation here> is your subjective opinion. I sincerely challenge anyone to paint a scenario where a semiautomatic is objectively better short of a full military engagement where you're trying to lay down cover fire with a handgun*.
*Hopefully that has never happened in the history humankind
Okay, so laying down cover for your shooting buddy's movement isn't a likely scenario, what is a likely scenario is multiple opponents and aggressors under the influence of drugs, not to mention the occasional bullet sponge. Albeit rare, it is best to be prepared. 5 or 6 shots and a slow reload isn't optimal. You may nail every one of those shots standing still at the range, but moving very quickly under fire changes things. I like revolvers, the're like classic cars. Fun to occasionally take out, but you won't see me driving one in the daily commute.
I carry either or auto/wheelie and ive had a 357 sig decnt round not super impressive give me a fat big slow bullet and im happy .. As to wheelies being out dated in tearms of combat Give me a cop whos comefortable shooing a wheelie instead of a wonder 9/40 and can hit accurately with close to perfect shot placment vs spray and pray .. who do you think i would prefer..
There are still a few locals here who carry wheelies and surprising they are the females and one carrys a smith and the other a nickle plated python both stoked with 357 mags not 38's.
I talked with the python carrying one and she said she could quailfy with a auto barely but her score went up almost 85% with the python and she didnt feel out gunned with it vs the gloack that is the issue gun ..
All about confidence in your carry piece of choice do i carry a 9 sure 13 round and 17 round version .. carry a 38 yup carry a 40 short and weak nope not intersted nor the 357 sig.. carry a 45 a ton do i feel confident in these guns yup ..
Do i feel out gunned with my 38 nope 6 well placed shot will certainly outdo 17 wildly shot rounds
lol now we're really getting off topic...
But seriously say you do have some horrible thing happen where all of your awareness and avoidance tactics fail for whatever reason and you're up against, let's say, three opponents.
Here's where I ask anyone: Given that the great majority of defensive shootings occur at very short distances, how many shots can you accurately fire under these conditions before one of these guys gets close enough to cut your gizzard out?
And if they're all shooting at you, well is there any cover or maybe at least some concealment? If the answer is no, well I think you're in some real hot water no matter how good you are or aren't.
Is it likely you'll miss? I think so. Things are always harder in the real world. But if the first six rounds don't do you any good, I don't think you should be terribly excited about the next six either.
You're (or I) also assuming a lot in any situation. Are the attackers determined to kill you? How many Armed Citizen Success stories have I read wherein the attackers fled after seeing such resistance?
There's too many variables. I can understand why more capacity may be something most people would appreciate, but personally as long as it's got at least 5 rounds in the magazine or cylinder I'll live with it. I dare say the overhwhelming majority of carry guns don't have a capacity greater than 6 or 7 anyway. How many rounds does a Glock 36 or a Kel Tec P3AT hold again?
Covering fire is a great thing in the military world, but in civvie life it's known as unaimed/uncontrolled wild shots that hit grannie in the window 14 blocks down the street. This equals Bad Things for you, suggesting you survive. I understand 17 round mags are nice, but ripping of "covering" fire empties mags really quickly - how many do you carry? I may suggest to you if high round count is what you like, check out the new CZ SPO1 with the Angus modified 19 round mag.
I have 29 rounds on me at all times, and I certainly hope that's enough, even though another 14 round mag would be nice...:)
There are reports dating across recorded firearms history of people surviving incredible gunshot woulds, including 50 BMG hits, multiple rifle hits, etc, and reports of people dying from superficial wounds, simply because they had been told, "If you get shot, you WILL die!" So, they died. I listen more to the Marshall style data, as gelatin is just a stable measureable media, and not a human being. Doesn't matter - everyone has an opinion, which is why the 9mm vs 45/ ve 40 vs 357SIG vs X will continue until we start arguing various wattages and power cells for phasers and disrupters....
If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?
That assumes that everyone with a high cap 9 sprays and prays. Simply false. I hit accurately with good shot placement, and can do it many more times than someone with a wheelgun before running dry.Originally Posted by Bud White
Euclidean, don't you owe it to yourself to have every advantage, if we want to argue statistics you have a slim to none chance of ending up in a firefight in the first place.
They hold far too few rounds. This annoys the hell out of me: going to a tactical pistol class there everyone is shooting full size high cap guns some with all kinds of tricked out IDPA gear and their shirt tucked in, then we break for lunch and they take off their rigs and slip a Kel tec in their pocket. It's either myself or the instructors that tell them they should be shooting the course with their kel tec. The general responce i get are "that's rediculous!" If so, then it's rediculous you carry it as a primary gun. I shot a 2000 round course 2 weeks ago with my gluck 26, IWB, and heavy cover garments.There's too many variables. I can understand why more capacity may be something most people would appreciate, but personally as long as it's got at least 5 rounds in the magazine or cylinder I'll live with it. I dare say the overhwhelming majority of carry guns don't have a capacity greater than 6 or 7 anyway. How many rounds does a Glock 36 or a Kel Tec P3AT hold again?
Simply incorrect. Covering fire doesn't really require a shot more than every 2 sec or so and can be aimed precisely. If you're using an M249, then sure, i guess you're spraying ammo without reguard because you've got a few hundred rounds. With a handgun, even a high capacity one, you can not afford to fire massive volumes or you will run out of ammunition. Tactics have to change depending on your equipment. Covering fire is not spray and pray.Covering fire is a great thing in the military world, but in civvie life it's known as unaimed/uncontrolled wild shots that hit grannie in the window 14 blocks down the street. This equals Bad Things for you, suggesting you survive. I understand 17 round mags are nice, but ripping of "covering" fire empties mags really quickly - how many do you carry?
Club I think it comes down to this: You're concerned about something you see as likely to happen to you and think you've found a better tool for your situation.
I too am concerned about something that I see as likely to happen to me and I've found a tool for my situation.
I wish I still had it, but there was a really cool article by Chuck Taylor a few months ago entitled something like "In Defense of the Revolver". He basically pulled a lot of FBI files and found two things to be true:
-The overwhelming majority of shootings ended after 5 or 6 shots
-The ability to reload quickly never seemed to make a difference. Even in instances where individuals did reload in a fight, which was a rare occurence, they were ineffectual in said fight.
The FBI to the best of my knowledge uses a single stack magazine with an 8 round capacity. Until just recently NYPD police used .38 revolvers. Alvin York kicked some major butt with a single stack semiauto I believe.
Another thing to consider is that just because someone likes what you might call a low capacity firearm doesn't mean they're complacent or they don't plan for overkill. I believe in carrying 2 guns whenever possible. Even if they were both J frames that'd still be 10 rounds ready to rock and roll.
Now there are times I think 12 or more rounds in one go is desirable, such as in a full blown SHTF/war situation, and I have to admit these guns are fun to shoot, until you have to reload them anyway. I can also agree that if you prefer service pistols and like the wider butts, you might as well have as many rounds as will fit in there. There's no reason not to. I personally would trust my P89 with home defense and I still like the XD series (I want one still...). It's not like I hate such guns at all, it's just that I don't see greater capacity as some huge advantage.