HD Shotgun Ammo Question

This is a discussion on HD Shotgun Ammo Question within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; buckeye, Not really confusing to me since I know how it is loaded. My reasoning (and it may be flawed) is that if the Turkey ...

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Thread: HD Shotgun Ammo Question

  1. #31
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    buckeye,

    Not really confusing to me since I know how it is loaded. My reasoning (and it may be flawed) is that if the Turkey load doesn't stop them they (or their partner) may take cover behind a wall or something else hence the slug. The 00 after that is for "Oh Poop I didn't think I was going to get in a firefight."

    If anyone sees a flaw in this please let me know
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  3. #32
    Ex Member Array dwolsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvsjr View Post
    I've seen people shot at near-point-blank ranges with birdshot. It did NOT stop them. It DID piss them off, and it DID hurt them significantly... but it didn't stop the threat.
    We just had an incident here in Tempe, Arizona where some fool shot a shotgun with birdshot across the street from a restaurant with a lot of people seated outside. (I don't know what he was shooting at.) A few people had to go to the hospital for minor injuries, and a dozen other people said they think they were hit as well, but they didn't sustain any wounds at all.

    Birdshot (at least the #7/#8 size) has terrible penetrative capability, especially after it's been slowed down by going some distance through the air.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    After doing some reading and taking a couple classes I used #1 buck for a HD load until I had the chance to pattern the Hornady TAP in a combat shotgun class. As for over penetrating, the bottom line is, anything with sufficient penetration to be reasonably effective on a human being, is going to penetrate walls. This is a pretty good article that supports the use of #1 Buck:

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm


    BTW in two tactical shotgun classes, the birdshot question arose and was not recommended. This is due to the lack of penetration. The FBI penetration tests call for 12” with handgun ammo, this takes into account outer clothing and shots at “bad angles’ IE through limbs etc. That's 12" regardless of distance.


    http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

    Here’s a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates based on distance:

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...geindex=3#page

    Here's some more data, to include use of bird shot. Keep in mind, the distance was 3 yards or 9 ft. Even at that close distance the birdshot, although dramatic looking, didn't penetrate much past 9 inches. This is just ballistic gellatin, and doesn't take into account clothing or poor presentations.

    http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

    I think that bird shot is highly effective when used to defend against attacking birds.

    Chuck
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  5. #34
    Ex Member Array dwolsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    I think that bird shot is highly effective when used to defend against attacking birds.
    That's right. I've got 100 rounds of it just in case a flock of birds is waiting for me outside my house, waiting to peck my eyes out. I saw "The Birds"; I know just how dangerous birds can be!

  6. #35
    Member Array BonoVox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwolsten View Post
    That's right. I've got 100 rounds of it just in case a flock of birds is waiting for me outside my house, waiting to peck my eyes out. I saw "The Birds"; I know just how dangerous birds can be!

    Zombie Birds are even worse!!!!

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array incredipete's Avatar
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    It seems to me that if you shoot a bg with just about any caliber handgun or shotgun, he's gonna be hurt. Am I being naive?
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  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by incredipete View Post
    It seems to me that if you shoot a bg with just about any caliber handgun or shotgun, he's gonna be hurt. Am I being naive?
    That's true, but there's a large area between "hurt" and "incapacitated, unable to continue the attack".

    Chuck
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  9. #38
    Ex Member Array dwolsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    That's true, but there's a large area between "hurt" and "incapacitated, unable to continue the attack".
    Yep, especially if he's high on something like meth or PCP, which is extremely common these days. People like that don't actually feel pain, so something like a .22LR isn't going to do much to them unless you happen to hit a critical place (good luck). You're talking about people with superhuman strength, able to rip the muscles off their bones. If it takes 5 minutes for him to have enough internal bleeding to not be a threat, that's a long time to wait.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array sass20485's Avatar
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    You want have any problem using any brand in a Stoeger Coach gun. Break in open, drop in the rds, close the gun, pull the trigger, open gun, drop the empties & do it again. I use a Stoeger for my Cowboy Action Shooting and it works fine with all rds, including black powder shells. 7+ years of hard use and no troubles. Functioning in a SxS and Accuracy at self defense distances won't be factors. You may want to consider the wound channel information in an earlier post. It changed my mind about birdshot.
    Last edited by sass20485; May 29th, 2007 at 06:13 PM.

  11. #40
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    After doing a bunch of research on it, I'm going to change my load to #1 Buck. I used to carry 2 3/4 00 Buck, or 3" #5/#6 Bird shot, mainly due to over-penetration concerns with two other live bodies in the house.

    I wish I could find the test right now, but they did a ballistics test on this subject, and found that #1 was the best compromise between penetration power (always got to 12 inches) and over-penetration.

    Anybody using slugs better live in the middle of nowhere, as they're likely to exit your home and enter your neighbor's. Better not live next to me is all I've got to say about it, things wouldn't get pretty any time soon.....
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  12. #41
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    Brands of ammo

    If I may, back to the question of brand names. Is one brand better than another? From my experience that included working on the shotguns of a couple local PDs in central FL, I can offer my opinion. The biggest department used Remington 00 buckshot for patrol and were sending me guns for "repair" that were fouled by the little white plastic buffer powder from the shells (has a name, but can't remember it). This was caused by the fact that they loaded and unloaded their guns at the beginning of shift and when returning them to the armory after. The shells got beat up and leaked. That cleaning and tightnening loose fore-ends on the 870 were most of what I did for them. If you are using a double, this should be less of a problem for you. I have heard of the sealant glue that Federal uses getting into the shot and sticking pellets together, causing flyers. I have not tested this myself. I heard about it from a gun guy at another local PD, but that department tested and ended up adopting Federal tactical 00 buck, so it couldn't be too bad. The stock number is H132 00 and I have a lot of it in my ammo pile. The Winchester low recoil 00 load is a low brass load with a crimp that's melted in place. Solves the "problems" of the other 2 loads, but the disadvantage is it's low brass and won't cycle in my Benelli, and the shot is plain lead unlike the hard Copper plated Federal load. The patterns are bigger than the H132. None of the local agencies use it. Recently I switched to Federal's Flite Control load. The number is PFC 154, but that number is the same for the full power load and the low recoil load so you must specify. This load was very impressive. We keep a plain 12ga Mossberg behind the counter at the gunshop, and it's nothing special. With the PFC 154 low recoil load, it will shoot all pellets into a group the size of your closed fist at 60 feet (the max length of our range). This from an 18 inch open choked gun. Not only did I switch to it for my defense loads (and in birdshot for my upcoming turkey hunting experiment), but I bought some and gave it to the firearms instructors at several local PDs for them to test. I hope they end up adopting it, it's that good. Thank you for reading this far, it's a long slow night at work.

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