This is a discussion on Black Talon within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; IMHO...
A good shooting that is rightously justifiable regardless... If you end up being charged with a crime you are gonna have a bad time ...
May 15th, 2007 04:09 AM
A good shooting that is rightously justifiable regardless... If you end up being charged with a crime you are gonna have a bad time of it! Expense wise, emotionally and legal wise.
If a DA or Grand Jury decides to charge you in what should be a justifiable shooting then you can assume that the DA and/or Grand Jury is definitely on the ANTI-Gun side and everything about the shooting will become a hurdle to overcome.
You can expect that the DA will skew the facts, mislead the jury and generally play on emotional testimony and the emotions of the jury when at trial.
The DA will do his best to have as many "gunaphobes" on the jury as possible. The DA will also do his best to keep out as much exculpatory evidence as he can.
It will be a trial based on a political agenda, the DA's personal agenda and his biased feelings of distrust towards people using and carrying guns in general, and lots of "good guys" face those kind of trials frequently. Some win... Some Lose!
Regarding the ammo you used in the event. Most of the time, the crap they pull about the "evil, killer bullets" you used CAN be debunked.
However, it takes time, a good articulate presentation of the facts, it may involve expert testimony and it adds to the expense of the trial. It will also be emotionally draining on you as you sit there worrying how it will all play out.
The ammo will only be one of the issues you will have to try and debunk in your defense. You can expect the DA to call into question everything you did, and each will have to be addressed one at a time, in such a way that convinces the jury that you were in the right.
In my opinion, what you should do, is try and minimize as many of those "potential" pitfalls "before" the fact.
Why use something called "Black Talon" or "Extreme Shock" or some other similarly named item which brings a negative connotation to mind when there plenty of other factory loads out there with decent proven stopping power that doesn't have a scary name which an obviously biased, politically motivated DA would have a field day with in front of a jury full of "Gunaphobes." The same holds true for "handloads!" Sure, you may be able to successfully debunk the garbage, but why go down that road when you don't have to.
You will most certainly have your hands full explaining all the other facts that has to do with why you used lethal force to begin with on "some poor down on his luck homeless guy just asking for some money for a warm cup of coffee."
(remember, if you did not personally know the guy you shot had a history of rape, robbery, armed criminal action at the time you shot him, the jury won't get to know it either!) His prior "bad acts" will be inadmissable in your defense at trial! All they will know is that he was just another honest citizen when you shot him down in cold blood becaused he asked you for a dollar. Or whatever else the DA conjurs up for the jury to reflect on.
I use loads that are commonly used by Federal, State and Local law enforcement.
If the DA is stupid enough to try and say I'm trying to play cop! It's much easier to explain, "No... I use the same ammo LEO uses because LEO's are the good guys... LEO are the most reliable source of which ammo the "good guys" use that is the safest and most effective to use against a bad guy." Also LEO's have policies regarding the ammo they use and documents that support their policy.
It plays better on the jury as they should see the LEO's as good guys, and the DA can't very well say you are using "Evil, Killer" bullets or get some LEO officer to testify that you used an "Evil, Cop Killer" bullet if it's the same one he uses.
It is also much cheaper than having to hiring a ballistics consultant, bringing in a factory representative of the bullet manufacturer and any other expert witness you may need to debunk that one stupid issue the DA is trying to put you in prison over.
Of course, this is just my opinion based on what I have experienced over the years of studying cases and trials.
Last edited by Bark'n; May 15th, 2007 at 04:47 AM.
Reason: clarity and grammer
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
May 18th, 2007 11:36 PM
Interesting. I just purchased a box of .40 cal Ranger SXT (Same eXact Thing) rounds yesterday. 50 round box for $22. LEO working part-time behind the counter recommended them as an excellent home / personal defense round.
John 15:13 - Greater love have no man, than he who is willing to lay down his life for a friend. (Let's just pray we BOTH come out alive)
If the guns kill then pencils misspell words!
May 21st, 2007 06:43 AM
Nothing at all wrong with the T-Series line of ammo, great stuff and probably the lowest muzzle flash in the industry. Next is the legal mumbo, purchase commercially manufactured ammo that has a reputable name, Ranger T, Blackhills, Gold Dot, Federal and the burden of the ammo is passed on to the manufacturer. I personally choose the Winchester Ranger T Series in all of my ammo choices, reliability, economical, low muzzle flash and it sold as a LE Ammo. If an agency is going to use it the legal folks have usually done some leg work for me and their are plenty of shootings with it to help me in the long run from a legal aspect.
I personally would never ever buy and use the latest and greatest mass market frenzy of the best man killers and never use reloads.
Pick a sound and reliable manufacturer, train and be proficient with the mind, tactics, and gun.
May 21st, 2007 06:59 AM
I'm almost certain that the SKY MARSHAL'S use MAGSAFE or GLASER loads, nothing else would make any sense. Also these two brands have a lawsuit record that is to be envied by other firms. 100% ! Using the word "safe" in the title was a stroke of genius: Mag SAFE? Glaser SAFETY load? Genius. Half of a "affirmative defense" right there.
Originally Posted by FIREARMZ
The other half is found at the end of your quote: Pick a sound and reliable manufacturer, train and be proficient with the mind, tactics, and gun.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
May 21st, 2007 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by ExSoldier
Almost certain is wrong. They use Speer Gold Dot 125 grain .357 Sig. Bullet size holes in aircraft is over exaggerated. It does not cause rapid de-pressurization and suck people out of the tiny holes. The guy that the U.S. Air Marshals shot in Florida was shot 12 times and all bullets were retained in the body to include the head shots.
Last edited by FIREARMZ; May 21st, 2007 at 07:13 AM.
May 21st, 2007 09:17 AM
I have to second this. Sound advice!
Originally Posted by FIREARMZ
I cared for several patients in the early 90’s that were on the receiving end of the infamous “Black Talons”. Not very impressive, at all. The 45’s expanded well and had decent penetration, the 9mm’s didn’t. Not surprising.
Ammo development has come a long way since then, thankfully.
btw...I carry a 9mm and have confidence in it. Placement and penetration, repeatedly...
Just my $.02 worth…
May 21st, 2007 09:57 AM
The thanks goes to a James Bond movie for providing the public education on this. :)
Bullet size holes in aircraft is over exaggerated. It does not cause rapid de-pressurization and suck people out of the tiny holes.
Exactly - another myth - "over penetration".
The guy that the U.S. Air Marshals shot in Florida was shot 12 times and all bullets were retained in the body to include the head shots.
May 21st, 2007 08:59 PM
Everyone is talking about what an anti DA could do with a box of Ranger SXT marked Law Enforcement. But, there is a flip side.
If your local LE agency carries SXT and you go out and buy Gold Dots he could just as easily make the claim that Ranger SXT is used by the local police department and is available to the general public. Rather than using the round that is designed for law enforcement, you went out and found a round that would do more damage to the person you show.
Honestly, you're danged if you do and danged if you don't. Words can be strung together in the right order to make anything look bad. It is your attorney's job to combat the asinine things the DA will say in such a situation.
I am just thankful to be on a first name basis with our DA and to know he is far from an idiot when it comes to these issues. He will hammer you for a traffic accident that leads to a death if he can find any way to claim you were negligent. But, if you have to defend your life against a BG, he'll be more likely to congratulate you than to prosecute.
"The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
- Lt. Col. Oliver North
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