A .45ACP question

[limatunes]

Part of my reason for this poll/thread, a guy I know, ran some experiments with .45 HP ammo on targets that were dressed. His end results showed that most .45 HP ammo did NOT expand. The primary reason was the cloth filled up the cavity.

My question would be, what was he shooting? a paper target with clothes over it? A pig with clothes over it? into water? What kind of target was he shooting at that was dressed?

What kind of a study was he trying to do and what were the specifics of that study?

Knowing that would have a lot more weight in explaining why the rounds didn't expand.

Over-hyed or not, ammo is used as a means of attack by Prosecutors and lawyers. Carrying a round designated as "safe" or even rounds that local police officer's carry gives you more support to stand on should you ever have to defend your ammo choice in court.

Personally, I wouldn't care what was in my gun as long as it went "bang" and got the job done, but sometimes it's not that simple.

If it makes a hole, I'm happy, but YMMV.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[pgrass101]

Even though I do not carry a .45 (I do own one) I would carry HP's that's how I voted. I carry a .357 (with .38 spl's) or .380 everyday for concealability reasons.

Lima's right the only common hand gun round I would trust carrying FMJ's in is the .45ACP. I love the 9mm and carry it when I can, I like the penatrtion that 9mm gives me. But if you said you can only carry FMJ's I would pickup the .45 in a second.

I think that as much energy should be expended in the target as possible. Idealy the bullet should penatrate through the target and be just under the skin on the opposite side.

I think you should be prepared to have any round go through the target and have an idea of what is beyond the target. That being said, stopping the threat is the most important just try not to get tunnel vision.

[Al Lowe]

My question would be, what was he shooting? a paper target with clothes over it? A pig with clothes over it? into water? What kind of target was he shooting at that was dressed?

What kind of a study was he trying to do and what were the specifics of that study?

Knowing that would have a lot more weight in explaining why the rounds didn't expand.

Over-hyed or not, ammo is used as a means of attack by Prosecutors and lawyers. Carrying a round designated as "safe" or even rounds that local police officer's carry gives you more support to stand on should you ever have to defend your ammo choice in court.

Personally, I wouldn't care what was in my gun as long as it went "bang" and got the job done, but sometimes it's not that simple.

If it makes a hole, I'm happy, but YMMV.

I don't recall the exact material, but it wasn't a paper target. IIRC, it was something approximating ballistic gelatin.

Essentially, he was just trying to find out how effective .45 hollow points would actually be under "real" conditions, such as shooting at someone with clothes on. Most tests of this nature are typically conducted at "naked" test subjects. So they don't usually take clothing into account.

And I agree with someone else in this thread also. About the only weapon I'd trust shooting FMJ would be a .45. The 9mm has already shown it needs a good HP to work as a combat round.

[jbrooks175]

A few years ago I bought about 10 pounds of pork brisket and shot it up with .45 JHPs with intervening layers of clothing. Nothing scientific, but I figured actual meat may be a pretty good test of the "permanent cavity"...

I documented the tests, ptu it all on my computer and then had a hard drive crash, without backing up the data DUMB!

Anyway, as I recall, the "wounds" were impressive, and the bullets all opened up but not nearly as well as those "water tests" you read about in the gun rags.

The Cor-Bon JHPs fragmented, but did well overall. Some rounds got plugged up with cloth and acted like a FMJ. Others of the same kind did not get plugged up.

So what's the bottom line? I may re-do this test with more modern ammo, BUT:

IMO, there is a distinct possibility that a JHP will NOT expand, or if so, very little. In that regard, I still like JHPs, because they are NOT round-nosed like the FMJ. So whereas the plugged JHP may "act like" an FMJ, it really is not. The edges of the hollow point aill still tear meat/flesh, instead of simply penetrating it.

Also, the secondary effects of bone fragments needs to be considered. The pork meat was pulverized wherever a bone was struck, as the bone fragments acted like shotgun pellets in the immediate vicinity of the wound channel. Even large bones were pulverized by the .45s.

I don’t put too much stock into gelatin tests or even wet phone books. Nothing can compare to real flesh/bones.

So overall, my recommendation is o use a heavy JHP for self-defense. Almost Any JHP will do, frankly. Use a "heavy" for the deep penetration you need. Even from a 3" Micro barrel...

JWB

[GotSig?]

I carry Speer GoldDot 230gr.

[rhinokrk]

230gr Fed Hydra-Shok, out of a 3" SA Mil-Spec w/extras.