"That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.” - Page 2

"That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”

This is a discussion on "That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.” within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jdlv4_0 Trust me, there's a difference Most of the "been there, done that" folks I've known would agree with you. I just ...

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Thread: "That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdlv4_0 View Post
    Trust me, there's a difference
    Most of the "been there, done that" folks I've known would agree with you.

    I just met an LEO who survived a gunfight that was fatal for the meth head and layed him up for a year. He told his sheriff that he was only going back on the force if he could change everything he carried from 9mm to .45. Seems to hold true that gunfight survivors never wished for a smaller caliber!

    My father finished up his in theater time in the south pacific in WWII as an officer and had great faith in a 1911 with ball ammo for a reason. I still carry hp's, I'll take every edge I can get where my life is involved, but I wouldn't flinch at .45 ball either. Now LRN's in my .38 would concern me....
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Those who have fought with a 1911 using only FMJ usually have the attitude if it ain't broke don't fix it.

    FMJ will work in more 1911 then other rounds, especially GI type pistols. I personally like to run at least 200 rounds of a new type ammo through my 1911 before I will trust it for carry. I have never had trouble with FMJ but I have with HP of different brands in some of my Pistols.

    Push come to shove, if I am out of ammo I will buy FMJ before I will buy an untried HP.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    My Norcino Commander loves lead & FMJ Ball and JHP. It does not like SWC and jams every mag on it.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    I agree with QKSHOOTER

    I think I'll keep loading with Corbon Pow'RBall 45ACP but pulling the trigger is the last thing I WANT to do. The bigger the hole in the end of the gun, the less likely I'll get taken for granted.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  5. #20
    Member Array normal's Avatar
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    I carry hollowpoints partly for the extra damage that will be done when they expand, but also because of the consequences of overpenetration. I'm sure that ball ammo will do the damage to the person I hit, but I don't want to do damage to the person behind him.
    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace" George Washington

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    I think I'll keep loading with Corbon Pow'RBall 45ACP but pulling the trigger is the last thing I WANT to do. The bigger the hole in the end of the gun, the less likely I'll get taken for granted.
    You realize QKShooter was joking, right?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #22
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    Oh, it's going to kill me now, who's the guy who posted the pictures of the expanding hollow-points of the federal .45 rounds.. The expansion was the size of a quarter.

    Take a quarter (as I have done) and hold it up to anywhere on your body and imagine that going through you. It's a SOBERING thought.

    However, while doing research on the 1911 model I came across a study that they performed back in the early 1900s to determine the best combat caliber.

    Mind you, they were using ball ammunition back then, and their test included shooting bulls, cows, and other animals (I think there were human cadavers as well, but don't quote me).

    The result of the study was that no other round had the stopping power and sheer damage ability that the .45 (or larger round) had. It then became the official round of the military.

    After reading that study and looking at my own gun, the .45 is the ONLY round I would feel completely comfortable carrying with FMJs. I carry hollow-points because I'd much rather have a quarter hitting my attacher than a smaller, near half inch projectile, but in a pinch, I'll take that half inch over the rest ANY day of the week.

    True that any projectile being fired at nearly 2000 feet per second is going to do a number on anyone even if it's the size of a pellet, but when my life's on the line, I'd rather be throwing .45s at that speed rather than anything else.

  8. #23
    OD*
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    However, while doing research on the 1911 model I came across a study that they performed back in the early 1900s to determine the best combat caliber.
    The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver tests of 1904?


    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histor...round.htm#test

    I believe that was it.. I only read the results not the whole test but it's good to have.

    Thanks!
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  9. #24
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    True that any projectile being fired at nearly 2000 feet per second is going to do a number on anyone even if it's the size of a pellet, but when my life's on the line, I'd rather be throwing .45s at that speed rather than anything else.
    Most 230gr .45ACP rounds are going less than half of that out of a 5" barrel - somewhere in the 800-900fps range. Thus the "big and slow" camp of the .45 aficionados…

    For comparison, .40S&W rounds are going about 900-1200fps, 9mm clocks in at between 900-1300fps, and .357SIG cooks along at 1200 to almost 1700 (Cor-Bon Pow R Ball) fps.

    The never ending argument between velocity and mass for the ever-elusive “stopping power” goes on, and most likely always will, simply because we can never scientifically test – under completely controlled conditions – the shooting of human beings in the process of attacking other human beings.

    All that being said – if I have to get shot, I want it to be with a very small, very slow, non-expanding round!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Most 230gr .45ACP rounds are going less than half of that out of a 5" barrel - somewhere in the 800-900fps range. Thus the "big and slow" camp of the .45 aficionados…
    Hehe ().. I have no idea about velocities or speeds.. I just know that our range doesn't allow anything faster than 2000 fps and so .45 is under that.

    The never ending argument between velocity and mass for the ever-elusive “stopping power” goes on, and most likely always will, simply because we can never scientifically test – under completely controlled conditions – the shooting of human beings in the process of attacking other human beings.
    Isn't that the truth!! And I don't think many people would like to volunteer for testing.

    The best they can do is shoot at cadavers and so many things start to come into play when you start talking damage.. the condition of their bones, their weight, where they are shot, at what angle they are shot.

    I read a story about a guy who got shot eight times in the chest. Not ONE bullet hit a vital enough organ to kill him. He survived. Now, what were the odds of that happening?

    I have no idea what he was shot with, but whatever it was, it obviously didn't do its job.

    I also know a kid (my brother-in-law had to drive him to a mental institute where he'll spend the rest of his life), who put a shotgun under his chin and pulled the trigger.

    Because of the angle, HE SURVIVED!

    He has no nose, one blind eye (the other is gone) and suffers from chronic pain in his head, but he is alive and has all of his brain function as far as thoughts, speech and reasoning are concerned. He's just so depressed and angry and disabled as well as on such heavy pain medication that he will never be able to join normal society again.

    A shotgun.. to the head, and he still didn't die.

    If anything would work we would think that would.

    You just can't know what your rounds will do, but again, I'd rather shoot bigger rather than smaller, even if it's just for my own crazy peace of mind.

    If my attacker doesn't die, it wasn't from lack of the size of the bullet.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion everyone should pick his/her own calibre.
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    ...
    I read a story about a guy who got shot eight times in the chest. Not ONE bullet hit a vital enough organ to kill him. He survived. Now, what were the odds of that happening?

    I have no idea what he was shot with, but whatever it was, it obviously didn't do its job.

    ...

    If my attacker doesn't die, it wasn't from lack of the size of the bullet.
    The statistics are sobering and don't lie, you have an 83% chance of surviving a handgun wound. That means if you were to shoot someone with a pistol, there's a less than 1 in 5 chance that person is going to die, regardless of calibre. I can only hope enough people put into perspective the relative ineffectiveness of handguns. Don't get me wrong, pistols are incredible defensive tools, but we have to realize the compromises made when trying to get the advantages of a force multiplier into the readily portable package of the smallest of small arms . I realize people want that ever elusive "advantage" in a handgun, but the MEs agree they usually can't tell what calibre was used based on the wound itself on a body until they measure the slug.

    My friend is a .45 aficionado, he told me about those tests shooting animals and whatnot, and the reason the Army chose .45 was because it was the smallest round that could reliably take down a horse. I'm not shooting horses.

    I think we can all agree shot placement is key.
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
    -Horace

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    I'm of the opinion everyone should pick his/her own calibre.


    The statistics are sobering and don't lie, you have an 83% chance of surviving a handgun wound. That means if you were to shoot someone with a pistol, there's a less than 1 in 5 chance that person is going to die, regardless of calibre. I can only hope enough people put into perspective the relative ineffectiveness of handguns. Don't get me wrong, pistols are incredible defensive tools, but we have to realize the compromises made when trying to get the advantages of a force multiplier into the readily portable package of the smallest of small arms . I realize people want that ever elusive "advantage" in a handgun, but the MEs agree they usually can't tell what calibre was used based on the wound itself on a body until they measure the slug.

    My friend is a .45 aficionado, he told me about those tests shooting animals and whatnot, and the reason the Army chose .45 was because it was the smallest round that could reliably take down a horse. I'm not shooting horses.

    I think we can all agree shot placement is key.
    Excellent post and from a guy that carries .45.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=OD;390624]The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver tests of 1904?
    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histor...round.htm#testQUOTE]

    Remember, they didn't just work with cadavers. The primary tests were on livestock. They also concluded that accuracy and shot placement were of paramount importance when it comes to handgun round effectiveness.

    Certainly it's been proven that FMJ rounds are effective. However, modern expanding bullet technology makes for an even more effective option. I personally load JHPs that I've found to be reliable in my .45 1911s. It's the not-so-old axiom of "If less is more, think how much better more must be." Larger round = larger hole. Expansion = larger hole. We need every edge we can get.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  14. #29
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    If all I had on hand was 230 FMJ I would not feel ill protected. With that said I do prefer to use a good HP. I know people who have used the 1911 with 230FMJ in combat and universally the consensus was that it is a great round. The HP is just better. I tend to believe people who have actually shot other human beings with the FMJ round than someones statistics or theories.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I also know a kid (my brother-in-law had to drive him to a mental institute where he'll spend the rest of his life), who put a shotgun under his chin and pulled the trigger.

    Because of the angle, HE SURVIVED!
    If anyone remembers the Judas Priest trial back in the '90's, this was very key.

    For those that don't, Judas Priest was on trial in Reno, with the Honorable Judge Mills Lane presiding, over subliminal messaging in their "Stained Class" album. Two teenaged kids after listening to the album over and over decided to take a shotgun to one of the local Reno parks one night and shoot themselves in the head. One died, the other is terribly deformed. The parents of the two kids sued Judas Priest for "Pain and suffering" among other things.

    The just of the story is, as Lima put it, even a shotgun blast is not a guaranteed show stopper.

    Another story:
    I know a LEO lady who was effecting an arrest of a suspect in some crime (those details are fuzzy now, what is important is coming). She and the suspect got into a bit of a wrestling match. At some point, the BG got to his .38 and shot her. The bullet entered her chest just above the vest. She subdued the BG. One of her partners noticed she had some blood on her shirt, and upon further checking, they found that the BG had one spent cartridge. For safety, she was transported to the hospital where the doctors X-rayed and did find the bullet. They did surgery to remove the bullet and noticed that the heart was bleeding. She had been shot through the heart at point blank range and survived! The bullet entered her heart through one of the atrium's. The atrium's are the low pressure side of the heart. That low pressure may well have saved her life...that and the .38 semi-wad cutter that the BG had loaded in his gun.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

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