"That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”

[sgtD]

expandable bullets may or may not expand, but the .45 won't shrink.

I would rather have a .45, and think that in that caliber, FMJ is fine. In other calibers, HPs and hope of expansion is what I look for.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Alien Nation]

expandable bullets may or may not expand, but the .45 won't shrink.

I would rather have a .45, and think that in that caliber, FMJ is fine. In other calibers, HPs and hope of expansion is what I look for.

Agreed.

[dimmak]

I cant speak for others here, but I venture to say that I could stand to learn a bit more from Clint Smith regarding handguns than he could ever learn from me.
It seems the gun forums are full of individuals who type a lot but actually say very little....
I'll take my learnin' from competent trainers such as Mr. Smith and his peers any day compared to the rampant fallacies of an armchair quarterback armed with a mouse....

[Rob72]

I tend to believe people who have actually shot other human beings with the FMJ round than someones statistics or theories.

The problem is: its an apple to oranges comparison. Abiding by the Hague Accords, Mil forces may not use expanding/explosive rounds. LE and civvies don't have this problem, and the LE/civvie arena is different as well. Bottom line- ball is pretty poor in any caliber (but if you have to , .45 is as good as it gets), and slow HPs perform less consistantly through than fast ones. Anecdotes are good for personal decisions, but if you/your source haven't seen "more than a few" put down with ball and HPs, you don't have a basis for comparison.

"Real life" shootings tell us this, in EMS and LE AARs. Fatalities with all three calibers(.40, .45, and 9mm) are pretty even, among shooters of comparable skill, similar shot placement and number of hits.

[Alien Nation]

I agree that the HP is a better choice. I do how ever stand by my previous statement, "I tend to believe people who have actually shot other human beings with the FMJ round than someones statistics or theories".
The fact that military personel don't have another option is irrelevent. It doesn't change the fact that several Vets that I've discussed this matter said that the .45ACP 230 FMJ performed very well. In a military conflict or on the street on downtown USA shooting a person is shooting a person.
The fact that it was used in war situations doesn't mean that .45 FMJ ammo would be more effective than it would be states side. Yes a good HP is a better choice, but in .45ACP the 230gr FMJ is not a bad a choice as a FMJ would be in another caliber. I believe it' is due to the fact that it is such a slow moving large caliber bullet. I'm not suggesting anyone use FMJ ammo as a primary carry load but it isn't a terrible choice if there is no other choice.

[turbo93]

as mentioned already ad infinitum just be sure of your back stop.

[Bark'n]

I don't think you can get 10 people in the same room to agree on the same ballistics. The whole field of ballistics is such a complex science and trying to factor in a nearly infinite number of calibers, bullet weights, shapes, types, powder charge etc... It is a science that is absolutely elusive on finding one common stopping round in any given caliber. It will never happen!

I have the utmost respect for the likes of Clint Smith, Mas Ayoob, Jeff Cooper, Evan Marshall, Jim Cirillo (been in 17 gunfights, killed something like 7 people). I take what they say with more than a fair degree of understanding that they know of what they speak.

What I do is pretty much what each of them has recommended at one time or another. That is find a round that has a some imperical data on results in the type of gun I'm using, make sure your weapon digests it with 100% reliability and stick with it.

(For example, in 9mm I use 124 gr. Speer Gold Dots +P short barrel or Hornady 124 gr. TAP. They seem to work in the XD9sc and have a good reputation in actual shootings. For the Glock 23 I use Federal Hydra-Shocks or Speer Gold Dots in 165 or 180 gr. For my SP-101 I shoot 158 gr. SJLHP +P and don't quibble about the rest.)

Then, practice your marksmanship skills and be done with it. If you aren't practicing enough to be able to shoot center mass, make head shots, and shoot the pelvis to take out their skeletal structure under a reasonable amount of stress, then you aren't practicing enough.

More often then not, people get hung up on caliber and marksmenship and DO NOT spend Nearly Enough Time developing their TACTICS!

You will always be able to find the case of the wacked out PCP or Meth crazed thug who soaked up eighteen rounds of 9mm and still killed the cop. The guy who took ten .40 cal rounds and three 12 ga. 00 Buck loads before a slug to the spine finially ended it. Those cases are out there. And in no small numbers either.

All else considered, I believe being prepared and having better tactics than the other guy is what is going to bring you home alive and still kicking at the end of the day.

I try to shoot as an absolute minimum of once a month, and try to make it once every two weeks as marksmanship is a depreciable skill. That said, I spend much more time, reading and studying and developing my tactics and playing scenario's. I do force on force training with air soft with a few of my friends who are also committed as often as possible. (about 4 or 5 times a year)

The rest of the time I go around enjoying life to the best of my ability.

[Rob99VMI04]

.45's dont' move at 2000 FPS. human beings aren't cows or sheep. People look back at tests like the military trials and all the differn't tests, however, the one test that they seem to forget is from actually shootings, well what about Evan Marshall's tests from actual shootings? He found that ball is ball and that .45 vs 9mm are very similiar in "stopping power". He later used this term and said it dosn't exist. It basically where you put the bullet that matters when it comes to pistol bullets.

I don't believe in the MAGIC bullet theory, what it comes down to is a hit with a 9mm is more effective then a miss with a .45 plain and simple.

Whats the differences between .45 and 9mm

.45/1
.355/1
.45-.35=.1/1 (thats .100 of an inch)

7000 Grains in a Pound. This is comparing .45 to .355's

230 gr is 3.2% of a pound
147 gr is 2.1% of a pound

437.5 gr=1 ounce

230-147=83gr

the difference of 83gr is 83/437.5=18.9% of 1 ounce.


Is the human body going to be able to tell the difference in a 1.1% of a pound difference in object mass? Probably not. Its only going to react to something important being distroyed or interrupted (this is then put back on the shooter) Did he put the bullet in the right spot.


.

Oh, it's going to kill me now, who's the guy who posted the pictures of the expanding hollow-points of the federal .45 rounds.. The expansion was the size of a quarter.

Take a quarter (as I have done) and hold it up to anywhere on your body and imagine that going through you. It's a SOBERING thought.

However, while doing research on the 1911 model I came across a study that they performed back in the early 1900s to determine the best combat caliber.

Mind you, they were using ball ammunition back then, and their test included shooting bulls, cows, and other animals (I think there were human cadavers as well, but don't quote me).

The result of the study was that no other round had the stopping power and sheer damage ability that the .45 (or larger round) had. It then became the official round of the military.

After reading that study and looking at my own gun, the .45 is the ONLY round I would feel completely comfortable carrying with FMJs. I carry hollow-points because I'd much rather have a quarter hitting my attacher than a smaller, near half inch projectile, but in a pinch, I'll take that half inch over the rest ANY day of the week.

True that any projectile being fired at nearly 2000 feet per second is going to do a number on anyone even if it's the size of a pellet, but when my life's on the line, I'd rather be throwing .45s at that speed rather than anything else.

[OD*]

Notice that you no longer see Marshal & Sanow's "one-shot stop" articles appearing in the popular press the way you once did?

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/sanow-strikes-out.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...crepancies.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/undeniable-evidence.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/mar...al-analysis.htm

[Rob99VMI04]

By no means am I saying that its gospel or correct. I'm saying that alot people look at all the tests as long as its in their favor. I do not believe at all in magic bullets only people that know how to shoot.

I could really care less as to what they have to say. Its simple physics. A hit center mass with a 9mm is more effective then a shot in the pinky toe with a .45. Its simple physics mass hitting mass. The .45 dosn't send a signal to the brain saying OMG that was a.45 in diameter bullet weighing 230 grains I should fall down now.

The only thing that is know what to do is shut down when something is damaged or destroyed. This comes down to were did the bullet go? and what did it destroy?

Notice that you no longer see Marshal & Sanow's "one-shot stop" articles appearing in the popular press the way you once did?

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/sanow-strikes-out.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...crepancies.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/undeniable-evidence.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/mar...al-analysis.htm

[OD*]

I'm saying that alot people look at all the tests as long as its in their favor.

Exactly.

[normal]

OD,
What makes the links you posted any more credible than Marshall/Sanow or any of the other "experts"? Ballistics is too inexact with too many variables for anyone to say that they actually have all of the answers. It usually comes down to a p-ss-ng contest where they all are trying show who has the biggest you know what.
Talking ballistics is like talking religion, all you are going to do is offend someone's sensibilities and never change their mind.

[OD*]

What makes the links you posted any more credible than Marshall/Sanow or any of the other "experts"?

Did you read the links? Are you familiar at all, with any of the authors?

[normal]

Yes. I have been to the FTI site quite a bit and have read Fackler and MacPhearson a few times.

[Rob72]

The fact that military personel don't have another option is irrelevent. It doesn't change the fact that several Vets that I've discussed this matter said that the .45ACP 230 FMJ performed very well. In a military conflict or on the street on downtown USA shooting a person is shooting a person.

From the intial question, "The .45 doesn't have to expand"- neither does any other round. The statement is disingeniouous.

The options (or lack of) by the mil folks are not an irrelevancy, they are the only relevancy: rounds of similar (not "same") weight and velocity perform similarly. I haven't shot people. I have worked many, many people who have been shot.

I haven't used any particular caliber on a human; I have seen them almost all used.

Given the parameters of the HG, regardless of caliber, effectiveness is determined by quantity and placement. Nothing, "real-world" says otherwise. 9mm=.45=.38Spl,etc., etc., given the same area of impact, and applies even to .22 LR and .25, until you get into orthopedic trauma- incapacitating by shock to organs or fracture, from hitting a bone.

Regardless of caliber choice, there are essentially 3 major factors in choosing a sidearm: 1) Weapon size and ability to carry in relation to perceived risk and environment 2) Ability to place multiple rounds on target quickly, 3) The capacity to deliver multiple rounds to multiple targets.

Getting a bit OT, but caliber is a hang-point that many prioritize over considerations that might be more significant. Just a thought.......