"That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”

This is a discussion on "That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.” within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Regardless of caliber choice, there are essentially 3 major factors in choosing a sidearm: 1) Weapon size and ability to carry in relation to perceived ...

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Thread: "That big .45 slug doesn’t have to expand to be effective.”

  1. #46
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    Regardless of caliber choice, there are essentially 3 major factors in choosing a sidearm: 1) Weapon size and ability to carry in relation to perceived risk and environment 2) Ability to place multiple rounds on target quickly, 3) The capacity to deliver multiple rounds to multiple targets.
    Assuming that reliability has already been established, I am 100% in agreement with your list, Rob72. Well put.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Getting a bit OT, but caliber is a hang-point that many prioritize over considerations that might be more significant. Just a thought.......
    I agree but this threads is about ammo not tactics or training or mindset ect. I have had 8 years worth of prof. training and been in combat situations enough that what's in my gun is of little importance as long as it is reliable. Again the thread is about the ammo.
    Regardless of how many you have seen after the fact of being shot it's not about how one cal./bullet configuration kills better than another. It's about fast incompacitation. History has shown and proven that larger calibers do it better.

    The hard fact is where the metal meets the meat the 230gr .45 FMJ has proven itself as a good(notice I did not say best) fight stopper regardles of what any of the so called professional ballistic experts wish to claim.

    And given the exact same placement generally speaking a larger cal. is going to do more damage than a smaller one. More damage faster is what brings on incapacitation, faster.

    Anyways I respect your Opinion but disagree with it and that's cool. Most of us are going to carry HP anyways.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alien Nation View Post
    I agree but this threads is about ammo not tactics or training or mindset ect. I have had 8 years worth of prof. training and been in combat situations enough that what's in my gun is of little importance as long as it is reliable. Again the thread is about the ammo.
    Regardless of how many you have seen after the fact of being shot it's not about how one cal./bullet configuration kills better than another. It's about fast incompacitation. History has shown and proven that larger calibers do it better.

    The hard fact is where the metal meets the meat the 230gr .45 FMJ has proven itself as a good(notice I did not say best) fight stopper regardles of what any of the so called professional ballistic experts wish to claim.

    And given the exact same placement generally speaking a larger cal. is going to do more damage than a smaller one. More damage faster is what brings on incapacitation, faster.

    Anyways I respect your Opinion but disagree with it and that's cool. Most of us are going to carry HP anyways.
    Your agrument is well noted and has some validity based on "All things equal and taking place in a situational vaccum."

    Quote Originally Posted by Alien Nation View Post
    And given the exact same placement generally speaking a larger cal. is going to do more damage than a smaller one. More damage faster is what brings on incapacitation, faster. :
    But that in iteself lies the problem. The same shooter will never achieve what you are saying. All shootings have to many varibles to even consider, and you will never achieve a "All things equal situation"
    You must always considerd the pros vs cons. The people that try to validate the caliber argument don't understand thats not what you should be considering in a self defense gun. The size of the projectile makes no difference if you miss! I have no problem with somebody carrying a .45; however, (its sometimes fun to get them steaming). MOST people are convinced its the size of the projectile that will safe them and answer all the unanswered questions they have about SD. When that infact is no where near even being close to the correct solution. It seems that your saying, to me, that .45 is better and thus an individual is better off due to bigger bullet. Not if that individual can't shoot it and ends up making a wild shot and hitting my grandma.

    The brain is the overall deadliest item in inventory, how you use that means how well you've been trained, equipement comes after all that.

    PS the body dosn't relay an electrical signal to the brain indicating the size of a projectile traveling at near or faster the speed of sound. (THATS IMPOSSIBLE)
    It only can tell when something important has been damaged is destroyed!
    Placement is key all other arguments are secondary.

    PSS The worst shooting in American history was done with a 9mm the
    I'm only using it as an example, so your saying its not affective? I don't mean to sound evil or misguided, so please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just saying 9mm works very well in a skilled operators hands.
    Last edited by Rob99VMI04; June 6th, 2007 at 10:00 PM.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Not trying to boost my post count, but I think I get one by.


    400th POST

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    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  6. #50
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    I carry my 1911 with 230 grain ball. I don't know about humans but .45 ball is more effective on Texas critters than is 9mm ball.



    "900 armadillos can't be wrong"!

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    Does anybody here really believe Clint Smith doesn't own 1911s that are plenty reliable firing JHPs? Come on, you know he must be using Yost, C&S, Wilson or other high end 1911s and do ANY of those guys send a weapon out that will not feed JHPs?

    Clint is bright guy but there is always someone smarter than yourself on something. When it comes to ammo selection it seems he is not the smartest and seems to be locked into the "good enough for D Day" mentality. Strange that I do not see him advocating the Thompson or M1 for home defense...

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Your agrument is well noted and has some validity based on "All things equal and taking place in a situational vaccum."



    But that in iteself lies the problem. The same shooter will never achieve what you are saying. All shootings have to many varibles to even consider, and you will never achieve a "All things equal situation"
    You must always considerd the pros vs cons. The people that try to validate the caliber argument don't understand thats not what you should be considering in a self defense gun. The size of the projectile makes no difference if you miss! I have no problem with somebody carrying a .45; however, (its sometimes fun to get them steaming). MOST people are convinced its the size of the projectile that will safe them and answer all the unanswered questions they have about SD. When that infact is no where near even being close to the correct solution. It seems that your saying, to me, that .45 is better and thus an individual is better off due to bigger bullet. Not if that individual can't shoot it and ends up making a wild shot and hitting my grandma.

    The brain is the overall deadliest item in inventory, how you use that means how well you've been trained, equipement comes after all that.

    PS the body dosn't relay an electrical signal to the brain indicating the size of a projectile traveling at near or faster the speed of sound. (THATS IMPOSSIBLE)
    It only can tell when something important has been damaged is destroyed!
    Placement is key all other arguments are secondary.

    PSS The worst shooting in American history was done with a 9mm the
    I'm only using it as an example, so your saying its not affective? I don't mean to sound evil or misguided, so please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just saying 9mm works very well in a skilled operators hands.
    Again the thread is about ammunition not ones ability to hit the target. That would be a different discussion.
    "Placement is key all other arguments are secondary". I definitely agree that this statement is true. So I guess since this thread was originally about ammo it is a secondary type of discussion.

    Yes I am saying that the .45ACP is more effective than the 9mm.
    I did not however say that the 9mm is not effective at all. The 9mm is a great little round that packs alot of punch into a small cartridge. I would not hesitate to carry a 9mm and have done so. I prefer to carry a .45 though. I would though definitely carry it with a HP always as the 9mm is a lot more sensitive as to what works well than the larger bore handguns like the .45ACP. The 9mm is THE cartridge to have in the really small autos in my opinion.

    As a side note most people that I have taught to shoot a handgun found the .45ACP to be very easy to handle and control. Some even said it was easier for them to shoot fast and accurate with the .45 because of the slower recoil impulse. They said it was easier for them to get grooved in with than the .40 or 9mm. I myself find it easier to shoot fast and accurate with a .45 than the 9mm. I do conceed that this is not the case for all.

    Once again the original idea here was to discuss the .45 ball ammo not tactics, training ect.


    "But that in iteself lies the problem. The same shooter will never achieve what you are saying." I'm not sure what you mean here. If your talking about where I said "And given the exact same placement generally speaking a larger cal. is going to do more damage than a smaller one. More damage faster is what brings on incapacitation, faster". I ment that provided the two different projectile hit the same type and consistancy of target. Please correct me if I misunderstood.
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  9. #53
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    Thanks for pointing that out OD. I thought maybe I was the only one who remembered the Marshall & Sanow fiasco for what it was - very near career ending embarrassment for its authors.
    Jack

  10. #54
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    Hi Jack (don't say that in an airport )

    How ya been, haven't seen you around in awhile?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
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  11. #55
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    Now my understanding of terminal ballistics is extremely limited .
    As i understand it tho If all else is equal a big heavy non expanding bullet will be more effective than a smaller lighter non expanding bullet as long as velocity is constant . This is why we had both the 45-70 and the .45 colt or later the .45 acp . Smokeless powder and the increased velocity changed this equation tho and led to the .30 cal and later the .223 or 5.56 cal battle rifles . Higher velocity in handgun ammo also helped spur the expanding bullet technology for handguns . IMHO a smaller high velocity expanding bullet can work just as well and in fact even better than a bigger slower non expanding bullet . The old Lead Semi Wadcutter HP rounds were the stars of thier time no matter the caliber or velocity they were poked out at and in fact the fbi carryed them well into the jacketed hollow point era . For myself i would take even a standard velocity .38 special hp over a .45 acp ball round , but i would shure take the .45 ball over a .38 or 9mm ball .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdlv4_0 View Post
    Trust me, there's a difference

    Yes there is and the biggest is the cost to train. Ammo cost have gotten stupid. Doctor after doctor has said they cannot visually look at a wound and determine what caliber bullet did the damage until they find the projectile.

    Nothing wrong with a 45, works pretty good at what it was designed to do, I own a few of them and carry them sometimes. Shot placement is much more important than caliber.

    I usually opt for the 9MM with premium jacketed hollow point due to ammo capacity and I had rather be shooting during a gun fight than reloading. If my gun will not feed a good JHP I either get it fixed or get rid of it.

    I am not in the military so the Hague is a non-issue for me.


    This topic is a very old one and will never be solved, to many kool-aid drinkers from both pitchers, so I say shoot what you can afford to shoot and shoot best and make it reliable.
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  13. #57
    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    I carry a .45 most days because the 1911 is the platform I feel I'm most competent with. Ergonomically, the gun suits me well and the .45acp gives me all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings. When I started carrying my current Mil-Spec, I carried 230gr. fmj for a few months until I felt my choice of jhp loads was reliable enough to depend on. Even now, when I wear a dual mag pouch, the primary reload is 230gr. Speer Gold Dot (same as what's in the gun) but the second reload is fmj.

    All that said, I'll soon be switching my primary to a 9mm Glock G19 loaded with premium jhp in 124gr +P (Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc). My reasoning isn't because I believe one caliber is significantly superior to the other in either direction, it's due to my own physical demands and abilities: I need a lighter weight weapon in a lighter recoiling caliber than what I'm currently carrying - in my mind that means a polymer 9mm with reasonably good capacity.

    Given the choice of any handgun for carry, it'd likely be a Colt Commander in .45acp but that's not practical at this point. I may in time switch to a 9mm SA EMP if funds and availability coincide but that's a good way off in the future at this point.

    I'd rather see someone carry a .32acp that they shoot consistently than a .44mag they can't hit with.
    Jack

  14. #58
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    I'm an old fogy but I don't have much faith in expanding bullets at handgun velocities. Maybe they will expand, maybe not. I've certainly not tried every expanding handgun bullet out there but the ones I've tried in my ballistic non-tests gave inconsistent performance. Good hits and adequate penetration would seem to be the most important considerations.

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    expandable bullets may or may not expand, but the .45 won't shrink.
    And guess what you have when it doesn't expand, a FMJ (hollow point). So if you're relying on JHP to prevent over penetration your only fooling yourself. If I have JHPs then I use them but I have never felt at a disadvantage with FMJs. There are no magic bullets, but I'll take a 45acp any day over any lesser caliber.

    If you really want to find out what works in real life shootings read this forum, the guy works in a morgue. The point he makes clear is that no bullet is totally predictable. He also went back to 45acp after seeing all the gunshot victims that came thru the morgue.

    http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...5471026821/p/1
    Last edited by gunfighter48; June 10th, 2007 at 02:04 AM.
    gunfighter 48
    A 45 may not expand but it will never be smaller than .45!!!
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  16. #60
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    I guess i am really not suited to the cal wars , Ill take an expanding bullet every time no matter the cal . I love the .45 , and love the 10mm as much or more . They are great rounds . Still every day i carry a single stack 9mm. It will do its job if i do mine and if i am ever again invited to a gunfight i wont be at a dis advantage with my 9. IMHO cal dont matter , loading dont matter , mindset and ability matter a lot . Dont take my post as i advocate carrying a .22 short or other such .. do take it as if you arm yourself with a .38 special or up and do your part on hitting where you look you wont go wrong if you need to defend youself/loved ones .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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